19k to spend on a car

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119875457#Comment_119875457

Yes correct, Kona is really a hatchback on stilts, looks good but the boot isn't very big

I'm always getting the Focus and Fiesta mixed up 😅

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119872810#Comment_119872810

Yeah tbh for someone who is regularly travelling long distance to varying destinations with no destination charging there's exactly one choice, Tesla

You want the most reliable charging network in the country for that kind of driving, and the Tesla SuC network is exactly that

And I'm saying this as an ID.4 owner, not a Tesla fanboy

I think as others have said, the other realistic option is a PHEV. If your driving is a mix of short drives with the odd long trip then it'll probably work for you

unkel

His long distance driving is 300km max. Which you can do in a Kona, no need for a Tesla if you don't need to publicly charge 😀

slave1

I would not go for a PHEV, you will be dragging around a heavy battery on your long journeys, PHEV (the devils work) are best suited to short daily trips on mostly battery not long daily runs

kirving

I'm far from a Tesla fanboy too, but 900km per week in 300km segments is absolutely prime territory for one - you'd be mad not to buy a long range EV, comparted to a €20k ICE (unless of course there are other factors like mortgage application or moving away). Yes you'll get smashed on depreciation, but you will in 19k high mileage ICE too. At least in an EV, you might get you money back, the money you spend on diesel is gone forever.

€150 p/m on electricity, vs €390p/m on diesel (€260pm saving).

€5.5k in 3 years, vs €14k

If staying with ICE:

Cheapest option almost always is to keep your car, but if you must change...

IMO €19k or so is a bad price point to be doing high mileage too, as you have a decent bit of money to lose on depreciation, on top of fuel costs, and you might not get a great warranty on a €19k car. If you buy a car with say 100k on it now, in 3 years time, it has 250k km and the value and saleability has dropped off a cliff. And you've spent €14k on fuel in the process.

I think you'd actually be better getting something lower mileage, with a warranty, even if if cost more, and getting rid of it after 2 years, before 200k km. Your depreciation will be marginally higher, but less likely to hit a cliff at 200k km, and you have a nicer car for that period.

Or, buy the nicest car you can for €8-10k with a fresh NCT, over 250k km. Keep €2k in the bank for repairs, and drive it into the ground.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119877351#Comment_119877351

A heavy PHEV battery makes little to no difference on the motorway in my experience, where the vast vast majority of fuel usage is wind resistance, and easily match petrol on regional roads.

Around town traffic, EV mode comes into it's own, but does need to be charged, or 300kg of batteries hit consumption a lot in percentage terms vs the ICE equivalent. But distances are less so it's less of a problem.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119877196#Comment_119877196

I get ya, but I feel like you'd be operating at the limit of the Kona, so you'll probably end up using public charging a few times as part of your commute

I always say they people should balance any time spent charging against the savings of an EV and how much they feel their time is worth

Personally when I'm commuting, I feel my time is almost infinite value, I want the least amount of hassle and time spent using chargers. To me, that points to Tesla as the best experience, you have a network that's well distributed, has plenty of availability and just works

I think a Kona would work for @tom1ie, and it's definitely closer to his budget. But I do feel the experience with a Tesla would just be a lot simpler, and if you're on for a penny on the Kona, then could it be better to go all in on a Tesla? 🤔

Soarer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119872810#Comment_119872810

Where are you getting a €15k loan @ €160 per month?

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119877388#Comment_119877388

If you wanted to spend a max of €19k, then stretching to €25k is already going very far. The cheapest Teslas are nearly double that again 😂

Kona is fine, 300km range is enough for him, on a very bad day in winter just drive a tad slower. No need for public charging.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119877633#Comment_119877633

If you wanted to spend a max of €19k, then stretching to €25k is already going very far. The cheapest Teslas are nearly double that again 😂

Agreed.

Kona is fine, 300km range is enough for him, on a very bad day in winter just drive a tad slower. No need for public charging.

EV database showing 265km winter highway range:

https://ev-database.org/car/1125/Kia-e-Niro-64-kWh

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119877441#Comment_119877441

Credit union 🙂

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119877388#Comment_119877388

Problem with that is I don’t want to/can’t take out any more of a loan as I have other monthly expenditures to take care of.

fafy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119878246#Comment_119878246

Thats the ENiro link, the Kona is a little higher, @ 280 km of range, in cold weather, and assumes, its highway driving, which i am unclear, if your 300km return drive is actually @110km, which is what the EV database assumes, and remember these are estimates, and depend largely on driving style.

https://ev-database.org/car/1423/Hyundai-Kona-Electric-64-kWh

Bottom line is, its not possible to get an EV for 19k that will do a 300km round trip, driving at 110kmph, without any charging during that trip. If there is a charger en route, that will add more flexible options.

Stretch the budget to at least 25k, and it probably is possible. Factor in, fuel savings, motor tax savings, and servicing savings, over 3 years, should eat into most of that 6k budget difference, so it could well be cost neutral overall or close to it, when you add the cost of a 19k ICE, with the extra fuel, motor tax and servicing costs, and the residual value.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119878246#Comment_119878246

Yeah that's why I mentioned that on a bad day in winter, you'd want to slow down a bit to comfortably make it to your destination. In summer you can hammer it.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119878614#Comment_119878614

Well I’ve done some sums:

assuming:

24000kms per year (2k a month) 2.10 a litre for diesel

.20c a KWH

kona 64KWH at €27k means loan for €23k which is €279PM.

assuming 20c per KWH this car would cost 64x.20=€12.80 per “fill” which will go 280kms distance.

2000kms a month/280kms range= 7.14 fill ups to do monthly mileage therefore round up to 8.

8x€12.80= €102.40 per month fuel cost for EV

1.6 diesel civic:

@4L/100kms the civic goes 1500kms on a 60l tank.

2000kms a month/1500kms range= 1.3 fill ups

€2.10x 60l tank= €126.

€126x1.3=€168 on diesel per month

So that’s a difference of €65.60 per month in favour of getting an EV in terms of fuel costings.

However the loan for the civic is €170 pm, the loan for the Kona would be €279pm, which is a difference of €109 in favour of the ICE.

Now it’s €43.40 in favour of the ICE overall and I don’t have to worry about range.

So if I add in tax:

the EV is €120 a year (120/12=10 pm)

the ice is €200 a year (200/12=16.67 pm)

A difference of 6.67 in favour of EV.

Now it’s €36.73 in favour of ICE.

With regards to servicing:

ICE requires a service every 12100kms so two services at 24k @€250 that’s €500 a year which is €41.66 pm

KONA needs a service every 15000kms so 1.5 times a year(?) @ €127 a service= €190.5 a year ( €15.88 pm)

that’s a difference of €25.78 in the EVS favour so that’s 36.73-25.78= €10.95 per month in favour of ICE plus no worry of range?

Where have I gone wrong in the maths?

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119878733#Comment_119878733

Cost of electricity for the Kona will be €0.1375/kWh on the Energia EV plan

https://www.energia.ie/products/price-plans?MeterTypeDDL=2

The easiest way I find is to used consumption to figure out the cost of charging

Kona should get around 20kWh/100km, so for 2000km that's 400kWh

Add 10% charging loss and you've got 440kWh*€0.1375/kWh gives about €60 per month for electricity

Don't forget that EVs also get a discount on many toll roads, so factor that in as well

Also you're assuming just the basic service cost with the ICE, but with that mileage you're probably looking at an oil change, and possibly an engine clean every year

the_amazing_raisin

I've got an EV vs ICE running cost calculator somewhere, I'll see if I can dig it up

Also, 4l/100km on a Civic seems wildly ambitious with a lot of motorway driving, is that what you're getting at the moment?

I would have thought 5l/100km is more achievable

unkel

@tom1ie - "Where have I gone wrong in the maths?"

You are treating cash flow as costs. I think I tried explain this to you a few times before? Your monthly loan repayment is not a cost, but your depreciation of your car is. Obviously you need to have the positive cash inflow to be able to make your monthly payments, but it's not costs!

Depreciation is by far the biggest cost of most cars and it has proven to be considerably lower in most EVs than in ICE cars. Also you don't mention tolls, you get 50% discount in an EV and 75% on the M50 off peak up to a max of €500 per year. For me in Dublin this saves me about €200-300 per year alone and I don't go through any tolls for work much, just socially. And how come you are paying €0.20 for electricity? Every EV owner gets night rate, for me this is currently 7.9c / kWh, that's why I mentioned filling up a Kona from empty to full for a fiver. Insurance is generally cheaper in an EV too

And that's just the financials. EVs are far more comfortable to travel in and far better for the environment

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119878799#Comment_119878799

Bit outdated there, that 7.9c/kWh rate is long gone, it's 13.75c/kWh now 😭

kirving

To begin with, you suggested that you would be doing 300km trips two to three times per week.

That's 31-47k km per year or 2,600-3,900km per month.

You new figures are 25-50% lower than the above which changes things big time.

I know the 1.6d Civic is one of the more economical on the market, I think you'll struggle to get 4.0l/100km consistently.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119878808#Comment_119878808

If you sign up today, sure. But that's still well over 30% cheaper than the OP used for his calculation. Plus the mileage he claimed to be doing is way higher than what he used in his calculation as @kirving pointed out

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119878798#Comment_119878798

That’s according to a few different websites and you tube videos that have confirmed it. I thought it was a bit ambitious myself tbh!

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119878799#Comment_119878799

My monthly repayment is a cost!

It comes out of my wages so it’s a cost that I can’t spend on food for example.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119878843#Comment_119878843

Yeah fair enough I did say 2-3 times a week which works out at 28k over 48 working weeks.

The more mileage you do the more it makes sense to go EV for sure.

It seems a bit close in my case though.

Soarer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119878594#Comment_119878594

Really?

Over 3-5 years?

That's an insane rate.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119878926#Comment_119878926

You're close, but it is weighted a bit in favour of the EV in terms of running costs I reckon

So it's down to a question of driving experience and how much you want an EV. They're a lot nicer to drive and tbh I think any concessions you'd be making to the odd public charge would outweigh the benefits

It's something that you can only answer yourself though. It's definitely worth test driving the Kona to see what you think though

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119878911#Comment_119878911

Honestly, it's not.

Maybe I can explain with a simple example. Let's say you buy car A, for €12k or car B for €9k. Loan for 1 year, no interest. So the monthly repayment on car A is €1000 and the monthly repayment on car B is €750. Total repayments for the year were €12k and €9k

Now after a year you go sell the (fully paid off) cars. Car A is worth €10k and car B is worth €5k

What do you think your costs were over the year (apart from running costs, etc. let's say they were all the same)? What car cost you more?

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119879049#Comment_119879049

I think there’s something off with the numbers from the OP. From his mileage to the now new mileage to the loan.

15000 @ 160 per month is 94 monthly payments and that’s without interest which is an 8 year loan!

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119879139#Comment_119879139

It’s a 10 year loan.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119879159#Comment_119879159

Seriously!

unkel

Do you really want to take out a 10 year loan to pay for a second hand car that will likely be dead or worthless way before the loan is paid off? How have you your life planned ahead for the next 10 years, is there a chance you need to make much bigger financial commitments like getting married / buying a house / having children?

kanuseeme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119877351#Comment_119877351

Absolute nonsense, batteries weigh the same per kWh, if, in a phev or a BEV, I cannot figure out how 10 kWh seems to weigh a ton, and yet a 100 kWh battery seems to be no problem whatsoever hauling that around.

Speaking from experience of several PHEVs, they do not really do any worse than an ordinary hybrid on long journeys, to make a phev work you do need to do more short trips on battery, even a journey exceeding battery range. if half on battery and the other half on fuel, it would increase economy by 50% over the whole journey done by a hybrid only.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119879168#Comment_119879168

yep.

10 year loan means lower monthly repayments.

I can pay the loan off early with any excess money I have.

The longer the term the lower the repayment the more potential money I have to overpay.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119879208#Comment_119879208

See above answer to other poster.

If the repayment is 160pm but I have an extra 300 that month I’ll throw that off the principle but keep the term the same this lowering the monthly repayment and freeing up more money for next month

TitianGerm

You're mad to consider taking a car loan over ten years and I'm very very surprised any credit union will offer a car loan over that length.

Does your CU offer a Green Loan? We offer one at a lower rate than the normal car loan and it can be used for EVs, Solar instal etc.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119879397#Comment_119879397

Why?

it’ll be paid back long before the ten years but I’ll be fixed to lower monthly repayments.

I’ll be able to overpay when I have it.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119879418#Comment_119879418

I actually agree with that approach, although I think you're taking it to a bit of an extreme

Keep the monthly repayment low but aim to overpay as much as possible, gives you the flexibility when needed without risking arrears

Buddy Bubs

A friend of mine did that, took out a long term personal loan with low monthly payments for a car with the intention of over paying.....never happened. Always something more pressing to pay for. Still has years left on a car that is already quite old and due a change.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119879432#Comment_119879432

exactly 😉

kirving

Taking out a 10yo loan for a car "just in case" is nothing short of insane.

If you must change your current car for some reason (more space is all I can think of, but a Civic isn't big?), then buy the absolute cheapest diesel you can find with a new NCT.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119879501#Comment_119879501

Yeah fair enough but I will endeavour for that not to happen.

the_amazing_raisin

In my case I do the low repayments and make overpayments strategy with the mortgage, where the impact is a lot bigger

As I said, doing that with a car loan is a bit extreme

You'll need a lot of self discipline to regularly make overpayments. It's very easy to get a bonus in work and decide to spend it on a holiday or a big Christmas for the kids instead of paying off debt

kanuseeme

Reminds me of Linda Martin, ''get all your loans rolled up into one easy payment'', in the end paying for a fridge or a holiday over 30 years with your mortgage.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119879540#Comment_119879540

Why is it insane?

Ive guaranteed a low repayment rate but I have the flexibility to overpay by whatever excess money I may or may not have.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119879593#Comment_119879593

Is it a fixed rate loan? If not then your repayments can rise

TitianGerm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119879418#Comment_119879418

Have you told the CU the loan is for a car and they've approved the ten year repayment term?

kirving

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119879593#Comment_119879593

The issue is with the "may or may not have" part.

You don't seem have the financial security to reliably make payments over say a 3yr or 5yr term, so do not take out such a big loan.

It's bad financial planning to tie yourself into a long term loan where you will pay much more interest in the long run, for an item you almost certainly will not own in 10 years time. Before even getting the loan you're putting it on the long finger by going for 10 years, I don't see it likely that you'll suddenly switch tack to paying it off quickly.

Unless you have a very specific reason, like applying for a mortgage where they care about monthly outgoings, it not a good idea.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119879616#Comment_119879616

Yep fixed rate with overpayment facility

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119879704#Comment_119879704

Yeah

TitianGerm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119880192#Comment_119880192

Do you mind me asking what credit union your with? I'm actually shocked that someone is signing off on a 10 year fixed car loan.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119879718#Comment_119879718

I can assure you I have the financial security to make payments over 3-5 years 😂

In fact I will have the loan paid off earlier than 5 years.

However I choose to push the term out to 10 years to give myself max flexibility and loan monthly repayments.

This thread was to find out was their an EV at 19k that suits my needs which there isn’t- not my financial education 😂