Little changes we can make to normalise cycling and encourage its uptake

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119883032#Comment_119883032

Follow the evidence. Motorists kill 30-40 pedestrians each year. Cyclists kill 1 pedestrian each decade. Serious injuries follow a similar ratio.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119883081#Comment_119883081

It is a real danger because it does happen sometimes.

As I said it's a side issue compared to greater dangers but lo and behold posters want to keep arguing for another 5 pages.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119883090#Comment_119883090

Whilst I don't know the road you're referring to, you shouldn't be alongside them but take the lane as per the Rules of the Road...

See pg 198 of the ROTR...

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119883090#Comment_119883090

Lots of older people are discovering the joys of eBikes in recent years

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119883107#Comment_119883107

Alongside as in a few feet away on the other side of the road heading the opposite direction. There's a decent cycle path on the pavement most of the way but the last mile is on a thin road leading to a bridge, and not for the faint hearted.

callaway92

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119883090#Comment_119883090

You did it out of curiosity though. Think of TAM SAM AND SOM in business terms. How many people are actually gonna make the change? Feck all in reality

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119883148#Comment_119883148

Did I ? What makes you say that ?

I think one of the answers to the OP is to remove some car lanes and transform them into safe cycle lanes, more carrot than stick. Make it a pleasure to cycle into town. Build a cycling culture. Also, most commuting cycling traffic in Amsterdam is relatively slow upright travel, not incredibly fast. Just saying.

Unrealistic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119883017#Comment_119883017

This has to be a wind-up. Nobody could seriously be invoking a 1970's Hollywood comedy as 'evidence' for what they're likely to experience on Irish roads?

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119883290#Comment_119883290

Lol

I wasn't 'invoking it as evidence', I just mentioned it because I was suddenly reminded of it.

I should've been more precise because I should've known that internet literalists would want a pages-long back-and-forth about the exact speed. I just picked a high-sounding number from the top of my head.

magicbastarder

you do realise that making up figures from the top of your head is not a sure fire way of being taken seriously in a discussion?

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882555#Comment_119882555

Stats are stats.

Stopping cyclists running red lights is important, but stopping cars who clearly do it a lot more is more important. Don't forget cyclists have begun to outnumber cars in parts of Dublin city, it may not look like it but that's a fact. They just take up way much less room, you need to bear this in mind.

magicbastarder

anyway, back on topic. normalising cycling is primarily about removing the sense or reputation of danger from it.

but one thing that can make cycling easier for people, unrelated to the issue of physical danger, is provision of facilities. i'm lucky, in that my employer provides secure bike locking facilities, and excellent locker/drying room/shower facilities. i was able to go hell for leather on my commute, with a decent climb near the end, knowing i was as well catered for in work as i would be at home, in terms of getting myself ready for the working day. many people don't have that, which would put them off cycling.

mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882911#Comment_119882911

Well you are entitled to hold that view but clearly there would be all kinds of constitutional issues around attempting to get people to display identification while walking the streets.

Cycling is a different issue. Once using the bike on a public road, standards are required to be met and people must be accountable.

On the pedestrian side, I do believe careful consideration should be given to areas where there is a high chance of a pedestrian falling off a path etc and possibly greater use of barriers to prevent accidents. It's being done to prevent terrorists mounting footpaths so could also be used to save pedestrians from themselves.

Unrealistic

@mickdw Well you are entitled to hold that view but clearly there would be all kinds of constitutional issues around attempting to get people to display identification while walking the streets.

Cycling is a different issue. Once using the bike on a public road, standards are required to be met and people must be accountable.

So you're suggesting that it's the bike that needs identification rather than the person cycling it? So the identification marking would be displayed on the bike rather than on the person? What physical form do you see this taking?

b v

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119883968#Comment_119883968

I presume he means attached to the bicycle like a motorbike registration. Either way it’s a rubbish idea.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119883936#Comment_119883936

What’s the constitutional difference between identification for people walking and identification for people cycling? I don’t recall any references to walking or cycling in the constitution. Pedestrians use the public road, so surely standards are required to be met when crossing the road and people crossing the road must be accountable?

Barriers don’t protect pedestrians. Barriers enable dangerous driving. If you want to actually protect pedestrians, try getting drivers to obey speed limits and put their phones down.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882555#Comment_119882555

Have you any plans for stopping drivers breaking speed limits, using their phones, driving while drunk or on drugs so that cars can be considered serious road vehicles rather than oversized toys?

magicbastarder

and your usual 'how can we make cycling more attractive/accessible' descends into the usual 'reg plates for bikes' nonsense.

so if my 75 year old mother wanted to cycle 1km to meet her friend, she'd need a reg plate on her bike.

i'm perpetually amused at the mental experiment of trying to figure out how the likes of the daily mail would react to such a measure. gross government intervention into licencing a simple means to get around? or finally those cyclists get their comeuppance?

anyway, i think the sheer weight of the number of nations who have implemented this measure speaks volumes for how likely it is to happen.

Homesick Alien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119879633#Comment_119879633

Oh no, all that beautiful tarmac ruined!

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119884017#Comment_119884017

Yes my plan is to enforce the law with a zero tolerance policy. I'll be sure to share it with the Minister for Injustice.

Awww, I saw this thread and thought it might be a great discussion

I should have known better

growleaves

--

patrickbrophy18

The problem with the Irish method of encouraging cycling is that we are squeezing all the road user groups into tighter spaces. There are some Dutch examples which we could follow where the different road user groups aren't obnoxiously on top of one another. See below:

Notice the grass verge separating the two way cycle track from the main carriage way.

Here is another one in the form of a roundabout which shows a nice and spacious layout for all road users:

Maybe, we should be using these designs as benchmarks and not the ludicrous squeezing imposed on all road users.

From a road rules perspective, we need to clamp down on the double standards which breeds resentment between the main road user groups.

Now, there are always going to be entitled members in each and I am aware that for motorists, this mentality is many times more dangerous given that cars are weapons in the wrong hands.

We need to also educate pedestrians and cyclists on the dangers of passing larger vehicles like articulated trucks on the inside given the blind spots which these vehicles have. In many cases, this leads to fatal collisions which ruin the lives of all involved.

Yes, better equipment could be placed on vehicles to address their blind spots. However, would it not also make sense to encourage pedestrians and cyclists to also heed the advice of stickers on HGVs?

We can't just have one sided due diligence.

Unrealistic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119883999#Comment_119883999

Yes, that's exactly where I was going. Motorbikes have plates mounted on the rear mudguard and the plates are about the same width as the rear tyre. If we apply that same logic to bicycles the plate will be roughly the size of a small box of matches. 🤓

Goldengirl

Normalise cycling ....? Cycling is very normal but is not made easy in our cities .

Better planning would make it so easy ...

Have housing near schools and creches.

Walk and / or facilitate cycling for your smallies . Most children prefer travelling to creche or school with other children not to mention promoting healthy habits .

Walk safely to school initiatives and cycle where safe .

Helmets and reflective jackets. Of course . We wear them . And our children DID too. Unfortunately these get ditched once most children reach 5th or 6th class unless you can persuade them somehow

I lost that battle . I found insisting on them meant they refused to cycle...I agree that if the way is made safe then the need for these are less . However that does not mean country or busy traffic areas.

Enhanced pedestrian and cycle crossings along the way .

Cycle lanes like Griffith Ave . Love those plastic bollards 😁

More tolerance from those driving , enforce speed limits at 20 km per hour at school commute times .

Busy commuter traffic needs to be diverted away from school , cycle and pedestrian ways even if that means closing off more smaller streets for parts of the day . Like what is being planned in Fairview atm .

Parents take turns doing schoolcycle supervision . Little ones cycling on footpaths, training wheels trikes, again with supervision , but the earlier they start the more likely to continue .

We were both working, one of us a long, way away, but we made this a priority for our kids, having both been lucky enough to have grown up cycling to and from school ourselves .

Hooked up with a group of like minded parents and neighbours and with a bit of give and take , before we knew it they were in their teens and cycled most places themselves safely .

Still do the taxi service to and from nights out but that's another story .😣

But we were lucky. Housing near schools , safe roads, wide footpaths, some stay at home parents who were good enough to do the supervised collect from school when others could not get home from work to do it... they got the morning runs off .

We campaigned for cycle lanes not linked to bus lanes , good signalled crossings , and my youngest( of four ) was the one who benefited from that , but we are proud of the result and hope it can be rolled out everywhere.

I cycle for pleasure now and to go visit my friends .

We have neighbours who wanted the comfort of the car , drove a couple of kms with their children to school even on dry days and were stuck in endless traffic , and their children all have their own cars now , parked in front of the house , never walk or get a bus anywhere .

Also some who did cycle have cars because of long difficult commutes where they cannot get public transport to get to work on time .

They are no less healthy , because they go to the gym regularly and they often take our guys when it's raining, so best of both for us 😁

I think if the infrastructure was better people would choose to cycle more, if not all , of the time

People not having to travel miles for school , shops, creches and work is the ideal situation , and safe cycleways . Good public transport would alleviate the situation and not just in Dublin . Take more cars off the road.

No offence to drivers , I drive myself half of the time, but it's hard to see anyone else outside of other motorists, without being made to focus on them , like at signalled crossings or where specially built cycle lanes take up half the road .

So those areas need to be writ large and it's good that people are taking notice now.

Lost a friend a few years back , who despite her lights and helmet and reflectors she just wasn't seen by the motorist who was busy negotiating other larger traffic ..she shouldn't have had to compete with all of that in this century .

magicbastarder

i was in berlin last week on a city break. was very interesting to see how much more prevalent cycling is there, but how much more common shared space is there, and how more relaxed they are about shared space.

it has to be pointed out though that for the size and density of the city, cars are much less prevalent, and i suspect that's in huge part to the excellent public transport system - buses, trams, and the S- and U-bahns. but that makes cycling more popular i suspect as the roads are less choked with cars than they would otherwise be.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119884089#Comment_119884089

Hilarious to see the contrast in attitudes towards drivers and cyclists. It might be time to give up the pretence that safety is your concern here.

Homesick Alien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119880597#Comment_119880597

It looks fantastic I have to say and myself and my family will definitely be using it. The one obvious anomoly being that Carrickbrennan Road, which will link the new cycle lanes to the seafront bike path, has no cycle lanes despite being extremely wide with on street parking on both sides of the road and two very wide footpaths. I wonder why they're not extending the scheme to provide that link.

bladespin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882458#Comment_119882458

Yep, I'm in that boat too but tend to use contacts when I'm out on either bike (not much fun in motorbike helmets either).

John_Rambo

This is the "Little changes we can make to normalise cycling and encourage it's update"

Calls for mandatory helmets, mandatory high vis and registration on bikes by petty haters pretending to be concerned about safety should be in the "Stupid little things we can suggest to discourage cycling & make the roads more congested" thread.

These threads never lead anywhere, all they are is an opportunity for the same posters on either side of the debate to repeat the same arguments, ad nauseum.

The same rows about who breaks more red lights, etc.

If you want to cycle, then do so. Good for you.

But I wish some would accept that cycling simply is not practical for everyone, and stop bothering those of us that have no desire or interest in cycling, alone. Or at least keep it in the cycling forum.

If there were beautiful purpose-built cycle lanes all over this city, I (and many others) still wouldn't cycle, and I'm tired of listening about it.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119885576#Comment_119885576

Nobodies forcing you to cycle.

Nobodies forcing you to read these threads.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119880227#Comment_119880227

wouldn’t work.

any school in a remotely urban setting, is in close proximity to residential property…. There are three schools in this area which all are.

in addition, outside of the 300 meter zone you will create traffic parking bottlenecks with therefore more problems, danger and illegal parking.

you will simply create more significant danger elsewhere, in many cases this will be in residential areas.

causing problems for and inconveniencing people doesn’t ‘normalise’ anything…

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119885366#Comment_119885366

I just said I would enforce zero-tolerance against misbehaving drivers after you asked me what I would do about them.

Are you even understanding what is being said..?

growleaves

Way too many people on this thread are just looking for a fight.

spaceHopper

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058271873/little-changes-we-can-make-to-normalise-cycling-and-encourage-its-uptake

With a bad attitude like yours I wouldn't hold out much hope.

We try to walk the kids to school as much as possible. The activity first thing before school helps them settle in class, its great for them.

If you want to improve cycling up take then it's about providing choices and not bullying people out of their cars. And about providing younger people with the choice of postponing getting a car for while. Once you have kids I see a car as essential, life would be to hard without one. But then do families need two cars.

What I would do.

Better busses, the aim would be no standing, guaranteed that you will always get on a bus. For me I could get the bus to work no problem but getting home, I get on at the edge of the city and it's full by the time it gets to my stop so I have to stand if I can get on the bus at all. I only use the bus as a last resort.

Enforce the rules fairly, including on cyclists.

Obey the lights, of you have the plastic bollards at junctions it makes it hard for cars to pull out. Traffic lights break up the traffic so it easier but if cyclists break the light you have a constant stream of bikes coming against cars trying to exit a junction.

Don't leave home without a helmet, lights, higo-vis and a lock.

Don't tolerate blocked cycle lanes you car, delivery van... will be lifted. At the same time don't put up with badly maintained cycle lanes.

If there is a cycle lane it must be used, we can't have segregated cycle lanes resulting in narrower roads and the expect cars to share the space with cyclists.

Unrealistic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119885661#Comment_119885661

@Strumms any school in a remotely urban setting, is in close proximity to residential property…. There are three schools in this area which all are.

There are already 'School Streets' in some parts of the country that are designated as no access during drop off and collection times except for residents' access. It needs to be enforced to make it work but it definitely can work in real life.

@Strumms in addition, outside of the 300 meter zone you will create traffic parking bottlenecks with therefore more problems, danger and illegal parking.

If you let everyone converge on the school then they are all converging on one point. If you set up a 300m zone then you are at a minimum creating two drop off zones, so halving the problem. That's if there is only a single road with no cross streets within 300m in either direction. In reality you are going to get more than two in an urban area. One school I'm familiar with that got the School Street designations has four separate approaches that are now used by parents to access by car before completing the final stretch on foot. So rather than there being 'more problems, danger and illegal parking' there is actually much less.

@Strumms you will simply create more significant danger elsewhere, in many cases this will be in residential areas.

For the reasons outlined above this is just patently untrue.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119885715#Comment_119885715

Predominantly you. You're even fighting facts and stats presented to you. You've no interest in offering changes we can make to normalise cycling and encourage it's uptake, you've nothing to offer to the thread except recount negative experiences you've allegedly had with cyclists.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119885941#Comment_119885941

I’ll go with my own experiences thanks, the patent truth and experiences of living beside schools as opposed to your that makeyup agenda driven contribution 😉

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119885966#Comment_119885966

I can challenge your interpretation of statistics if I want to. "Fact" and "stats" cannot interpret themselves.

I did offer changes to normalise cycling and its uptake in my first post in this thread. Then I agreed with another poster re Griffith Avenue cycle lanes.

Unrealistic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119885860#Comment_119885860

@spaceHopper If you want to improve cycling up take then it's about providing choices and not bullying people out of their cars.

@spaceHopper If there is a cycle lane it must be used, I can't have segregated cycle lanes resulting in narrower roads and the expect cars to share the space with cyclists.

You've got a bit of a contradiction going on there, no? First demanding choices but then denying them.

Why would someone choose to bring a bike out of a perfectly good cycle lane and into the road. The normal answer is that almost no one would. Just as an example, in order to safely get to my exit on a roundabout on my way home each day I need to leave the cycle lane at the only safe spot and cycle alongside it for 400m. After that point the cycle lane is only useful for anyone taking the first exit from the roundabout, so anyone taking a later exit is better off joining the road. I'd prefer to be on a cycle lane separated from cars but the crappy design doesn't facilitate that. If you give people properly designed cycle lanes, of course the vast majority will choose to cycle there rather than in the car lane. You can see that in action in the Netherlands or Denmark, where cycle lanes are designed to facilitate the movement of people on bicycles. Here they are all too often just designed to tick a box and get general road improvement financed from 'active travel' funds, with little thought given to their usability.

Unrealistic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119886005#Comment_119886005

Hmm. So you offer spurious reasons why making a certain change "wouldn't work" based on living beside schools that have not tried to implement the change. And I offer a concrete local Irish example where making that change has worked in real life, and give details about how and why it has worked in practice, yet I am the one with the "makeyup agenda driven contribution"? Right.........

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119885576#Comment_119885576

But I wish some would accept that cycling simply is not practical for everyone, and stop bothering those of us that have no desire or interest in cycling, alone. Or at least keep it in the cycling forum.

you're in the commuting and transport forum. it's relevant here too.

and who is bothering you? the thread is about how to make cycling more accessible and enjoyable. no one is poking at you.

Tenzor07

Ireland like the UK isn't a cycling nation and never will be. We're just too far behind the European continent. Ireland is more like America where people use the car for everything.

No cycle lanes, rampant theft, dangerous drivers, lack of Gards, the list is endless when it comes to getting cycling to become a more popular activity.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119885661#Comment_119885661

how would preventing cars coming within 300m of a school create more bottlenecks? you'd be spreading the cars out over a larger area.

i'm not religious about 300m, could be 200m or 100m; never know, you could tailor it as the situation needed. i just know that for the school beside me, the lollipop lady has to deal with normal traffic as well as parents weaving in and out looking for parking spaces. unless a child or parent has mobility issues, i think a walk of 100m or 200m to a school is perfectly reasonable. but without it, you have cars nearly playing dodgems very often where we'd be expecting any kids on bikes to also be congregating.

Plenty of cyclists who want to travel unhindered at great speed will not use cycle lanes which are full of slower adults and children on trikes and scooters etc. This isnt an issue if roads are wide enough to accomodate cycle lanes,cyclists and cars but many of the new cycle lanes are leaving cars/buses with barely enough space to pass each other or to safely pass parked cars. There most certainly should be a requirement that if cars have barely enough space to pass each other due to the installation of a cycle lane then cyclists must use this cycle lane or be fined for not doing so.

The cameras cyclists want installed to catch motorists can be used to catch cyclists who refuse to use cycle lanes where its necessary.

I live in a very built up area and its impractical to ban motorists from parking legally adjacent to schools. Many parents dropping children to schools are pregnant women who may have three children under five to get out the door to school, they may have a school drop off, a creche drop off in a different direction and a commute to work in another direction.All these children have to be lifted out of the car and walked into the school and and in lashing rain and windy conditions you want parents to have to do all this four times a day,what do you hope to achieve by making a parents life even harder than it is.

The attitude hear from male cyclists is what is seriously putting off potential cyclists, they see this male entitled behaviour in the workplace, in sports clubs, in recreational areas, in their home life and then they see the same bullying behaviour on the road,eg cycling two abreast,cycling too fast in cycle lanes,cycling at speed towards pedestrians in parks,continuing through red lights, cycling on pavements up one way streets,doing what they like and then if a car driver goes too near them they rant and rave and sometimes actually kick car doors.

They mount cameras on their helmets and film bad driver behaviour which they want the Gardai to act on,funny they never seem to video bad cyclist behaviour and it certainly exists, male cyclists clad in lycra arent loathed by the general population without good reason.

Unrealistic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119886208#Comment_119886208

Ireland was a cycling nation thirty years ago. Ireland is now more like America in some aspects because much of the infrastructure development in Ireland over recent decades has followed elements of American practices. Forty years ago the pattern in Amsterdam was much closer to the American pattern then it was to the Amsterdam of today. They made a choice to change that and now they are where they are. We are probably roughly where Amsterdam was in the early 90s so, yes, we are definitely far behind, but that need not mean 'too far behind'. Nothing is set in stone. Paris has achieved in just three or four year what it took the Netherlands decades to accomplish.

mrcheez

The main thing I would like to see done in Ireland is allow "Left turn on red" as is done in a host of other cities with success (they having right turn on red).

Would finally get the whole "bloody cyclists going through red lights" brigade off their wagons.

Note they don't seem to complain about pedestrians going through red lights 😂

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119885576#Comment_119885576

Did anyone ever suggest that cycling is for everyone?

Hopefully you can see beyond yourself and recognise the substantial societal benefits that arise from getting more people cycling, such as the near halving of cancer rates for those who cycle to work.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-39641122

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119886263#Comment_119886263

Do you accept that there is an issue with full grown adults not seeming to understand that red lights mean you stop regardless of whether you are a driver, a motorcyclist,a scooter user or a cyclist.

This bad behaviour by full grown adults, almost invariably males is a huge turn off factor for other would be cyclists,it really is.

A suggestion I would make to encourage cycling is to stop talking about how dangerous it is,if you banged on every day about how dangerous it is to walk then people will avoid walking, same with other activities that people do, seriously deal with the male entitled behaviour and reach out to all demographics instilling confidence in their ability to cycle from A to B,stop with all the negative coverage.

And finally get the Road Safety Authority on board with messaging about bad cyclist behaviour, this authority target other road users about courtesy and safe behaviour on the roads but they dont identify cyclist behaviour as a problem and anyone with two eyes in their heads can see it is a problem.