Spiritan abuse survivors urged to come forward as independent process to begin

downthemiddle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122587621#Comment_122587621

If there is a criminal investigation then the process is being followed.
I can understand your anger where a relative is concerned but if the Gardai are involved then that will determine the outcome of the case.
I’m no fan of Tusla either but they have improved since mandated reporting came in. If you feel they are not following their own guidelines I would complain to the Ombudsman for Children. However no complaint will be countenanced until the process is complete.

VinLieger

Dunno why ingles disgusting article is being rehashed again. but im gonna weigh in and I think my point of view might be more relevant than most especially those trying to defend her.

I went to both Willow and Blackrock and was taught by several of the paedophile cvnts, including brother luke and fr corry, thankfully nothing happened to me. All I took from the article was "they were mean to me but they were the ones being molested so I came out on top in the end". Yes some lads made fun of Sion Hill but it was a minority and the fact that ingle took this angle to write an article effectively gloating about this situation is fvcking abhorrent. When it came out it was discussed among many past pupils I know and every single one took it in the same way as ive described above. I don't personally know any of the victims who have come forward but i did hear at the time through the grapevine that her writing did not go down well with them.

Some on here may say well she didn't write exactly that or that's not what she meant, well tough fvcking sh1t because the real VICTIMS in this whole story took it that way and they are the people who matter here, not you, not roisin fvcking ingle or anyone else, so get down off your stupid fvcking high horses and stop defending someone who saw a terrible story about young boys being molested for decades and decided "hey im gonna go out and make this all about me!" because the victims are the ones who deserve sympathy and support not that narcissistic b1tch.

I hope the mods ban any further discussion of her "writing" from this thread.

tarvis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122586716#Comment_122586716

Banner news headlines from time to time do not count as action. Today there are other powerful entities damaging our society - mostly our young people .
They are important to our finances which grant them some kind of immunity . Just as the churches were used to provide cheap services and keep the populace compliant in the past. It’s actually all about money.
50 years from now new abuses will be uncovered in many places but with no church. to blame - just our own inertia.

PixelCrafter

There are times I just feel this place is completely screwed up. I was utterly sickened by all that went on between magdalene laundries, abuse in orphanages, industrial schools, and umpteen other contexts.

I know a lot of older generations who tend to bush or even laugh off what amounts to extreme physical abuse they endured that went on in schools here right into the 1980s. There's a coping mechanism involved in that.

I know older people with literal scars on their hands, and other injuries from being at school here caused by being beaten. One of my uncles still has scars on his back from where a teacher beat the crap out of him in the 1970s.

My grandmother used to recount stories of kids being beaten so badly that they ended up in hospital when she was in school, and that was in a normal, Dublin school back in the day and those stories don't seem all that rare or unusual.

I remember hearing first hand accounts from a woman who'd been in a magdalene laundry who broke down in our living room one day when I was about 11. I was way too young to quite process how bad it was, but I overheard and heard a lot of stuff.

We had some kind of very odd culture around this stuff - it's about brutality, power, abuse and it was completely sick and twisted. I don't think we've really addressed the overall implications of that and how it has left very lasting scars on society that really have not healed at all.

This round of revelations about abuse is yet another aspect of that same culture. It seems to have been absolutely everywhere and in plain sight, yet nobody did anything to stop it, prosecute it or deal with it in the normal way you'd expect in a functioning criminal law system or social care system.

I really don't know what to make of it all anymore, but I think we have been rearranging the deckchairs rather than dealing with a lot of very fundamental problems and hard truths about what was rather recently, and possibly still is a very strange and broken society.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122587611#Comment_122587611

We are a strange country alright but church weddings have fallen off a cliff.

Couples have a free choice about where they get married and the majority of them are choosing to have nothing to do with religion. Church weddings used to be almost 100%, but have been a minority for a few years now.

Where they don't have a free choice though is when they have to enrol their kids in school, all over the country there is massive unmet demand for Educate Together and similar schools, but the RCC knows that its future in this country is practically non-existent if its grip is prised off the schools. The vast majority of politicians are happy for the status quo to last until their retirement then it's somebody else's problem.

People need to make this a political issue like we did with abortion. Politicians didn't want to touch that one with a bargepole but they were eventually forced to.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122587867#Comment_122587867

Haven't clue who this person is nor could I be bothered looking for the article in question. Sometimes I see sh't in a thread that's completely irrelevant and just pretend like it's not there.

I'm aware of several cases in schools in the scope and individuals abused by lay teachers (cbs) and as I'm not in Dublin wouldn't be familiar with the tribal war that's being referred to here.

When the range of the scope was published I did suggest that it probably deserved its own thread.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122587435#Comment_122587435

It's a quantifiable comparison against your 'pretty much everyone' claim. We've gone from 'pretty much everyone' to 95% to overwhelming to 'the majority'. How far are you going to go?

Thanks for confirming that she didn't say 'Blackrock boys should feel inferior' as you claimed.

If you've been paying close attention, I didn't defend the article. I didn't defend the timing of the article.

I just pointed out that bringing it up again at this time is deflection tactic. Time to get over yourself.

PixelCrafter

It was an odd article, but I think it's also derailing a discussion about something a lot more serious.

downtheroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122587989#Comment_122587989

Catholic church weddings are still somewhere between 40-50% HD. It's great to see the huge drop off, but still roughly half of the weddings in the country each year are under the roof of this vile organisation.

PixelCrafter

It was only 34.5% of weddings in 2023

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2024/0426/1445852-marriages/

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122588020#Comment_122588020

Maybe a mod can change the title of this thread to reflect the entirety of the people affected.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122584195#Comment_122584195

I wouldn't send a child to boarding school.

Obviously Catholicism itself isn't the *cause* of child abuse, and atheism isn't a catch-all solution.

People are setting themselves up for disappointment if they think abusers will give secular schools a miss. They won't. Swim coaches, gaa coaches, teachers, 'friends of the family', babysitters etc., etc.

Stephen_Maturin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122588020#Comment_122588020

Well, it’s not, because you’re using comparison between non comparable parameters to make your point. Any thoughts on those reddit threads btw? The one you keep conveniently ignoring

Ah yes, because saying something literally is the only way to say or express something

The timing of the article was one of the main aspects that made it in such poor taste.

No. A deflection tactic to what end?? Seriously what the hell are you even talking about? I criticised a widely criticised article that directly related to this story in the relevant thread and for some bizarre you’ve made it into some personal crusade to defend Roisin Ingle’s honour - the extent that this has gone to is honestly absurd. I think the article was in bad taste, as did a lot of other people. You don’t think so, grand, I don’t care what you think about it, just drop it.

Stephen_Maturin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122588062#Comment_122588062

I completely agree, as I’ve said I merely criticised a widely criticised article in the relevant thread and I have no idea why that other poster is so trenchantly trying to debate over it - their immaterial semantic points haven’t moved my position one inch on the topic, so I see any additional discussion as pointless.
Will leave it there as you’ve said I don’t want to be involved with any derailing of discussion of the latest developments in this horrible story

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122588308#Comment_122588308

People are setting themselves up for disappointment if they think abusers will give secular schools a miss. They won't. Swim coaches, gaa coaches, teachers, 'friends of the family', babysitters etc., etc.

Right but none of that gets religious orders off the hook.

Gardai are investigating (finally) into whether organised paedophile rings existed in some of these schools, as victim testimony indicates.

The religious orders knew well what was going on - whether it was just (a LOT of) individuals, or rings - they knew.

Swim coaches, lay teachers etc etc. don't and didn't have the benefit of wealthy powerful organisations to cover up for them. To provide a hideout from the law (Brendan Smyth, for three years). To pay for expensive legal defence teams. To create and pay for highly dubious "treatment centres" to avoid prison. To provide paedophiles with room and board in their old age. To frustrate victims seeking to sue in civil court.

csirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122587744#Comment_122587744

A staff member continuing to work in a school while under criminal investigation for child abuse is contrary to the guidelines..........yet Tusla does nothing.

csirl

Some advice for any parent looking into a school for there child.

You need to find out who is on the Board of Management and what type of people they are. If the BOM is mainly made up of e.g. priests/nuns/brothers, older people loyal to the church, local parish busybodies, people active in Legion of Mary, Knights of Columbanus etc. RUN A MILE. DO NOT CONSIDER THE SCHOOL FOR YOUR KIDS.

Because if abuse occurs, their number 1 loyalty will be to the church. They obey "canon law", not the real Law. They will disobey child protection guidelines. They will cover up.

downthemiddle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122588481#Comment_122588481

That’s not Tusla’s responsibility, it’s the responsibility of the board of management as their employer.
You can write to the secretary of the board ( registered mail is advisable) and to the patron.
You can also contact the Department of Education at the following number +353 (0) 9064 84099.
It must also be remembered that not every complaint reaches the threshold for abuse and the complainant has no entitlement to be informed of the outcome of the complaint.

csirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122588520#Comment_122588520

Stop gaslighting victims families.

Write to the BOM???? Are you for real??? Do you honestly think a BOM does not know its staff members are under investigation (hint - Gardai telll them)?

As said many times, the official position of D/Education is that the have no role.

In the case I"m referring to, it was well above the threshold.

Be honest - are you involved in tbe Catholic church? Are you on this thread at their behest?

downtheroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122588197#Comment_122588197

OK 1 in 3, still beyond belief in this day and age and allows the church to think there is still an interest in what they have to offer.

Are there stats on the % of children that are baptised each year?

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122586029#Comment_122586029

It seems that disgraceful deal was done by Michael Woods on a solo run, Minister for Education at the time. Even though the religious orders got a sweetheart deal for a tiny percentage of the total bill (following the Ryan report), they have only paid 16% of their agreed contribution and locked their assets away in trusts so they can't be touched.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/the-indemnity-deal-at-a-glance/26537819.html

https://villagemagazine.ie/church-redress-deal-needs-rethink/

https://www.thejournal.ie/redress-religious-orders-labour-ivana-bacik-6480316-Sep2024/

Do our elected representatives really think those orders will pay up of their own free will?

A truly vile organisation that brainwashed our people and controlled every aspect of this society for far too long. They revelled in their power, admonishing people regularly, calling them sinners, belittling, bullying, and dishing out harsh treatment at every opportunity. Nobody dared to call them out. Poster boys like Casey, Cleary and Tony Walsh preaching about how people should live, while they, and their ilk, injured and damaged people.

The destruction they caused to those children's lives and to their families is unforgiveable. It should not go unpunished.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122588309#Comment_122588309

It's a quantifiable comparison because 123 people liking the post means that your claim that 'pretty much everyone' disagrees with the article doesn't stand up. I haven't looked at reddit, I don't really know how it works, so I won't be able to comment on what I'm seeing there.

For the third time, I haven't defended the article or Ingle or her honour. It's not about her. It's about you digging up your grudge about a two year old article on the morning of the horrendous news about the confirmed extent of physical and sexual abuse.

If your best defence to your claims is that you didn't mean them literally, after spending a couple of days trying to defend them as literal, I think you've already lost.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122588427#Comment_122588427

Child abusers gravitated to the BBC for the same reason- power, influence, access to children away from their parents (children's TV).

Abusers will deliberately go where money, power and access to children can be found.

Something to be borne in mind is all.

Hotblack Desiato

@mrslancaster

The destruction they caused to those children's lives and to their families is unforgiveable. It should not go unpunished.

It will though, in the vast majority of cases, and the superiors and bishops who well knew what was going on, covered it up, and even facilitated it, will never be touched.

The "deal" that Woods did was a disgrace but the orders won't even honour that.

RCC and orders need to be sharply reminded that they do not after all run this country.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122589113#Comment_122589113

'It will though'

It will what? What is 'it'?

Was your reply directed to my post?

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122589069#Comment_122589069

So now instead of "but but the swim coaches" it's "but but the BBC".

Deflect deflect deflect.

It's not working.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122589132#Comment_122589132

I'm not deflecting from anything.

Feel free to respond to the actual point I've made.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122589166#Comment_122589166

Hbd wasn't responding to you. 'It' is "the destruction caused by the RCC to children's lives that will go unpunished "that Mrsl was pointing out.

downthemiddle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122588533#Comment_122588533

Nice rant.

Schools have very specific guidelines to follow.

https://www.ddletb.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/DDLETB-procedures-for-the-management-of-allegations-or-suspicions-of-child-abuse-against-teachers-and-other-employees-1.pdf

The type of cover up you are alleging would cost people their jobs, and rightly so. Anyway I hope your family member gets the support they need. I'm out.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122588427#Comment_122588427

well, actually.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/my-abuser-tom-meehan-was-a-monster-he-had-a-type-he-knew-who-to-go-for/42434443.html

“When I went later to the gardaí, the DPP decided not to press charges. I’ve learned there were other people who had also reported abuse. There could have been a case brought against him when he was still alive — you feel really let down by the system.”

Lee made an initial statement to gardaí in 2008, but never heard anything back. He found the DPP’s decision not to prosecute difficult to understand.

Those representing the school were seeking to have the matters struck out of court because of the lapse of time and inordinate delays in the case.

https://www.thejournal.ie/bill-kenneally-inquiry-today-brendan-td-6173599-Sep2023/

The commission, sitting in the Law Library in Dublin, is examining allegations of collusion between An Garda Síochána, the Diocese of Waterford and Lismore, the former South Eastern Health Board, Basketball Ireland, and unnamed “political figures”.

Survivors of his abuse believe Bill Kenneally could have been arrested and charged at a far earlier stage.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/committee_of_public_accounts/2016-02-02/3/

Let us stick with the individuals who made that decision. It is probably a good example. Mr. O'Brien is probably aware of comments that Ministers have made in recent days on individuals who made the mistakes about which we are speaking and who were responsible, in large part, for the neglect, poor care and, potentially, the very serious sexual abuse that occurred or is alleged. To cut to the chase, outside of Garda investigations and commissions of investigation, there are people still in the system, by which I mean the HSE, who have graduated to other organisations dealing with child protection whose work and involvement in this, in some cases, go back to the 1990s. They are still in the system and are still dealing with children and making very serious decisions at a very senior level when it comes to children.

I am saying it is not sufficient. I am saying this has gone on for 30 years.

csirl

The Government focus seems to be on tribunals and restitution.

How about focusing on stopping child abuse in schools so that we dont get another generation of victims?

eire4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122588989#Comment_122588989

I could not agree more, excellent post.

eire4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122588989#Comment_122588989

Hopefully all the parties government and opposition in the Dáil can get around the table so to speak on this one and learn the lesson's from the past with regards to the church refusing to pay even the derisory compensation levels they were order to pay under Michael Woods sweetheart deal. The religious orders simply will not voluntarily come forward compensation wise their past actions show that clearly so the government needs to find a way to make it happen.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122588989#Comment_122588989

Politicians need to be “pushed” harder on this at the doorsteps come election time- we the taxpayer shouldn’t be picking up the 5 billion euro plus bill that the compensation is estimated at- every penny that can must first come from those institutions - I don’t care if it bankrupts them and in most cases that will be a blessing anyway if it does - we’ll be well rid of them

Gloomtastic!

Our great social justice warrior leader, Michael D Higgins. A man not afraid to speak out on injustices the world over. We are so lucky to have him.

Maybe next time he has another private meeting with head peado, The Pope, he can bring up the topic of compensation for the raping and defilement of children in Ireland and across the world. They’ve only had four private meetings so far and Higgins is so full of praise for his great friend. I really do wonder what they have to talk about.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122589335#Comment_122589335

Another one who seems to think that the fact that other abusers exist gets the religious orders off the hook…

Oscar_Madison

I’m see. For the very first time a Garda email address that people can use to communicate with Gardai and report sexual abuse -this is fcking fantastic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122589633#Comment_122589633

I literally responded to your suggestion that other abusers wouldn't have the same protection as the religious orders, which is just untrue. They do. Nothing to say about that though no?

carveone

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122589069#Comment_122589069

Exactly. It's not as if these … people… I use the term loosely, don't know exactly what they're doing.

I was watching some video recently, one of those US talk show guys like Bill Maher; I believe he was talking about Disney specifically. Anyway, he mentioned a bank robber called Willie Sutton. When asked why he robbed banks, Sutton simply replied, "Because that's where the money is.". In the same fashion, why are abusers found in schools, churches, sports centres, scout camps? Because that's where the children are.

Nermal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122587457#Comment_122587457

Property rights are not absolute, the constitution explicitly refers to the common good. It also specifically mentions payment of compensation as grounds for diversion of religious property.

The government should place the burden of any redress on them, immediately, through legislation. Put them on the back foot - make them go to the courts to defend their assets and implicitly their behaviour. Give the judiciary a chance to do the right thing.

If they don't, then we can sharpen the constitutional pen.

PixelCrafter

I note it says that a religious organisation or educational institution's property has some protection, but it's not absolute. Also, does that mean that an educational institution, let's say a random language school for example, could not be pursued in the courts for an outstanding debt, lets its property be impinged upon?

Are there any precedents in Irish law where any educational organisation has been forced to pay bills, been sued and had to pay compensation, or been liquidated ?

Does it mean for example, if a religious or educational organisation had unpaid debts, or were sued for damages, that it could just plead poverty and keep all of its assets?

That would call into question a lot of things, including whether credit lines could be made available to them as normal businesses.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122590052#Comment_122590052

Of course there are. The important difference is that those are pursued through the courts. The courts dispense justice, not the oireachtas.

To force the Orders to pay currently, each case would have to be individually taken and facts established in order for the courts to give a judgement.

Given the length of time, the fact that none of this was documented, many of perpetrators are dead, the frustration tactics of the Orders and the costs involved, it is a hard for individuals to take a court case. That's why a redress scheme is preferred.

A redress scheme operates outside of the judicial system and typically has a much lower burden of proof. At its heart it basically relies solely on testimony. If someone doesn't agree to be part of that process, they cannot be forced.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122589978#Comment_122589978

So basically you're saying that the government should knowingly enact laws it knows are unconstitutional and then goad the judiciary into backing them.

Nope, cannot see any problems with the precedent that sets, no siree.

csirl

There needs to be a licensing system for schools. Similar to the HIQA system for old folks homes and hospitals.

realdanbreen

So we have "concerned Nationalists" wrapped in tricolours marching on the kips that misfortunes with all their possessions in a bin bag live in and yet no sign of them marching on the headquarters of these religious orders despite the evidence of horrific abuse carried out by these b******s!

lmao10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122590171#Comment_122590171

It's alright in their minds because the pedos were white priests and they themselves weren't victims of it. This is genuinely how these scumbags think. Otherwise they'd have at least said something about it. But the only thing they will do is double down on their support for the church. Keep in mind most of them are not even religious in the slightest.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122590171#Comment_122590171

these lads?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyAd1FUG5mo

Jinglejangle69

Don’t forget to endorse the Catholic Church and get all your kids ordained in communion and conformation this year parents!!

Your kids definitely won’t question that decision you make for them in 20 years!!

Cluedo Monopoly

Playback covering the clerical abuse inquiry now. Radio 1.

downtheroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122590868#Comment_122590868

The parents won't even think of this, they'll be too busy with the bouncy castle, the caterers, the hair and make up, fake tan, new dress, nails, photos on instagram and all the other very important things that jesus died on the cross for.