Spiritan abuse survivors urged to come forward as independent process to begin

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122589666#Comment_122589666

It's just not true that lay abusers had the same level of protection as members of religious orders did, and citing a couple of examples where Gardai or other state institutions did not act appropriately does not in any way alter that fact.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122591807#Comment_122591807

As it happens they are looking to model the inquiry on the commission of investigation in the Keneally case.

https://www.thejournal.ie/darragh-mackin-scoping-investigation-abuse-religious-order-run-schools-learn-from-bill-keneally-commission-6481062-Sep2024/

These are just the cases that are local to my area and which were in the public domain over the last number of years, the nature of which involved complicit cover ups by various authorities and systemic failure to protect the abused. The first case is one of those included in the scope as it occured in a CBS at the hands of a lay teacher. There were very few brothers in operation in schools at that time. (he's younger than me)

The "Grace" abuse case is not an outlier by any means, there are a huge number of failings of people in the care of the state, the HSE and Tusla which you probably are unaware of.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/organised-groups-of-sexual-predators-targeting-children-in-care-study-finds-1492475.html

The study also found that frontline workers were uncertain about reporting their suspicions and felt uncomfortable discussing sexual exploitation.

Dr Mary Canning, co-author of the study, described the findings as "harrowing" and "hugely disturbing".

"[The findings] show the incredible challenge facing the people expected to protect some of the most vulnerable children in our country," she said.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/brandon-report-details-sexual-abuse-by-resident-at-hse-run-disability-centre-1229311.html

The review, carried out by the National Independent Review Panel, found that a “common management strategy” to deal with ‘Brandon’s’ behaviour was to move him around various wards.

The report has identified 18 residents who were sexually assaulted by ‘Brandon’ throughout January 2003 to November 2011.

The reports states that the first recorded incident of sexual assault by the resident was January 28th 1997. A further three incidents of inappropriate sexual behaviour were noted from 1997 to December 2002.

The report said that these earlier records suggest that managers knew about the sexual assaults before 2003.

Hotblack Desiato

and? Deflection from the crimes of the orders seems to be the aim of the game here.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122592101#Comment_122592101

Sorry?

The entire report involves 844 alleged abusers in over 300 schools run by 42 religious orders across the country.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2024/0903/1468120-school-abuse-inquiry/

Across all religious order-run schools, the allegations primarily related to members of the religious order (69%), with the next biggest categories of alleged abusers being lay staff (17%), pupils (9%), and clergy (5%):
Overall, the number of allegations reported in female religious order run schools is 158, compared to 2,217 in male religious order schools

30% of the abuses occurred at the hands of lay staff/pupils and clergy.

If you think sexual abuse doesn't occur outside religious orders or isn't covered up in the same way then you're just mistaken.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122592106#Comment_122592106

Dumb argument. Only the clerical staff have the enormous power, money and influence of the RCC behind them. Ffs the RCC moved abusers around to protect the church from an abuser spilling the beans

eire4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122592101#Comment_122592101

Its the classic what about deflection.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122593244#Comment_122593244

I have no idea why this is troubling you. I responded to Hotblacks suggestion that somehow

Swim coaches, lay teachers etc etc. don't and didn't have the benefit of wealthy powerful organisations to cover up for them. To provide a hideout from the law (Brendan Smyth, for three years). To pay for expensive legal defence teams. To create and pay for highly dubious "treatment centres" to avoid prison. To provide paedophiles with room and board in their old age. To frustrate victims seeking to sue in civil court.

I've linked to all the cases from my locality that have been in the public domain over the last number of years which clearly suggests that is not the case. In fact in some instances, not only have they had the protection of the state, the garda and the church, but politicians also. (see the Bill Keneally case). In fact so much so that it now stands as the model for which any investigations taking place will follow.

Lay teachers were responsible for 17% of the abuses in the schools, and received the same protection as the religious orders. The Case of Tom Meaghan in Waterpark College, a primary example of the kind of abuses which fall under the category of lay teacher.

I realise Hotblack has a penchant for religious orders in general, I just don't see why any of the above should negate that.




Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122593460#Comment_122593460

Lay teachers have access to children at the behest of the RCC. The RCC puts them in that position, sadly whatever vetting or oversight, by the RCC, was seriously inadequate.

Using your numbers, 86% of cases involved RCC employees. Enough is enough, it needs to be out of education in Ireland.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122593523#Comment_122593523

I don't know what makes you think I'm arguing in defence of the Church.

dublinman1990

My former Dominican primary school in Dublin is on the list in the scoping inquiry report of Catholic run religious schools. It had 1 allegation of abuse carried out on a victim by 1 alleged abuser in the school. I have no knowledge about who came forward to make this allegation or who carried out the abuse on the victim. However; it did leave me with a lot of shock when I read the list of schools involved in the report during the week. There's also one other school run by the St John of Gods near my home address in Dublin which had a huge amount of allegations made against it in the report.

I was a pupil in the primary school from the mid 90's to the early/mid 00's. I only had 1 nun in the school at the time. She worked there as the principal of the school since 1985. She retired from her role as principal in 2007. After she had made her retirement; the role of principal was taken over by 2 lay people in separate periods of time which still continues today. All of the teachers & SNA's who worked there in the school were lay people where either employed by the church or the Dept of Education.

I do recall one female lay teacher there who was teaching in the school when I was a pupil there in the 90's. She was a really nasty woman to all of her students in her classroom. I heard some stories from my classmates at the time that she used to throw heavy classroom chairs behind her students back as form of punishment for taking part in alleged bad behaviour in the school. I am not sure if anything of a sexual nature taken place with herself and the students in her classroom.

Although I had heard from my classmates that the principal at the time walked into her classroom while the same teacher was carrying out the physical abuse on her students in her class. The principal than gave out to her & sacked her on the spot and reported the abuse to the guards straight away to get out her out of the school for good.

I was really very lucky that I was not a pupil in this teachers class at the time that she was employed in the school. I would not have been in a good place mentally if I was with her in there. The teacher in this case was also a really ugly brute of a woman as well. She used to smoke a lot of cigarettes when she was aged in her 50's/60's. She had a look of being the wicked witch of the east when I looked at her face sometimes when she used to collect her students for lunch after outdoor playtime was finished in the school for the day.

I'm still trying to digest the scoping inquiry report in full at this point in time. I still haven't read the victims testimony's in the report yet. Although it still leaves me with the view that the church's authority in running these schools has now hit a brick wall in how they can manage to run them in an appropriate manner to people living in this country in the near future. There is no way in hell that the catholic church can sugar coat the consequences of the abuse that has come to light from this report.

It only just scratches the surface in how many people were affected by the abuse under their own watch.

I wouldn't be surprised if all of the catholic national schools in this country had more allegations of abuse lurking underneath the surface while they are still located on lands placed under the ownership of the church. If thousands more allegations of abuse were recorded by them under more government reports in the near future; it will set off a lot of unwavering emotion from lots of people who live in this country that the status of the catholic church as the "rightful" authority of managing all of these schools in the 21st century is on a moral road to nowhere. The church cannot be seen to continue this charade of managing these schools under their own authority as they carried out a number of huge wrongs to their victims who were living in this country as innocent people for a very long time before today.

The level and scale of the abuse contained in this report has placed a long and unwavering black mark among the rank & file of those working in the catholic church in this country today and for the future. It cannot hide away from the ideals that 'God will be on their side' if they do nothing about it while many of their victims are still suffering with the trauma of living under the abuse. If they are still here with us to undo that level of profound damage placed on all of their victims; the time has come to do it now. We in this country won't rest until we see it happen.

NIMAN

Can someone answer me a question?

If me or you were accused of abusing kids, or disabled kids, the gardai would be chatting to me before the end of the day.

How come the guards aren't flooding into these orders to interview surviving abusers, their bosses etc?

Gloomtastic!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122594118#Comment_122594118

Because at the heart of the state is a Catholic elite running the civil service and state institutions like TUSLA. Until we get rid of them, nothing’s going to change.

NIMAN

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122594175#Comment_122594175

Doesn't excuse the country's police force not doing its job by investigating serious crimes.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122594199#Comment_122594199

If it was women who were being accused they'd have her locked up by the end of the week. (from another thread discussing the same issues)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nora_Wall

Seems like men are more inclined to protect each other when it comes to rape and child sex abuse.

Nermal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122590087#Comment_122590087

We won't know if they're unconstitutional until the judiciary makes that decision. I want the government to be proactive and force the issue. If it turns out we do need a referendum, ensuring the public are in the right mood is important.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122594300#Comment_122594300

You don't need a PhD in constitutional law to understand that the following provision specifically prohibits the confiscation of property held by religious

"The property of any religious denomination or any educational institution shall not be diverted save for necessary works of public utility and on payment of compensation."

It's cut and dry. And that's an additional protection over ordinary property rights which also apply.

aero2k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122594260#Comment_122594260

Not a great example, she was released after 4 days.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122590171#Comment_122590171

Sure that's the rosey catholic child raping Ireland that the pine for.

They have suddenly gone very quiet now that all the talk of rape is in regards to the unvetted single white Irish men in the community.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122594624#Comment_122594624

That's because she was innocent.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122594118#Comment_122594118

Garda need specific reports of crimes before they can start off.

NIMAN

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122595286#Comment_122595286

Why aren't those who were abused going to the guards then?

And I have no doubt loads of abusers have been reported to the gardai in the past.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122595297#Comment_122595297

There was a time when the Gardai could not be trusted to act when it came to clerical child abuse complaints.

The Murphy and Ryan reports called it out explicitly. One example.

Report by Commission of Investigation into the Catholic Archdiocese of Dublin: Statements. – Dáil Éireann (30th Dáil) – Tuesday, 1 Dec 2009 – Houses of the Oireachtas

The report makes a number of adverse findings against the Garda Síochána in about half a dozen cases both regarding inappropriate contacts between the Garda and the archdiocese and the fact that a number of very senior gardaí in past years clearly regarded priests as being outside their remit. There are also examples of gardaí actually reporting complaints to the archdiocese rather than investigating them and some of the Garda investigations that did take place were cursory.

It was collusion.

aero2k

There has been a lot of talk about this topic on Liveline and other programs in recent days. I'm a bit conflicted tbh; on the one hand I think it's good for survivors to be heard, on the other I fear vulnerable people are being exploited for entertainment.

Fintan O'Toole had a good article on this in the IT on Tue also. His book explains the social context in which the abuse took place. Here's a link to a review of the book sent to me by someone who attended the same primary school as O'Toole - all three of us went to the same secondary.

Warning: paragraphs 20-22 are pretty graphic.

https://www.thenationalbookreview.com/features/2022/3/17/review-an-iluminating-look-at-modern-ireland-the-good-and-the-toxic

Gloomtastic!

Story in the Irish Times this morning listing the value of the assets of the numerous congregations we have here in Ireland.

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2024/09/14/schools-abuse-inquiry-assets-at-religious-orders-run-to-tens-of-millions-of-euro-but-many-are-tied-up-or-restricted-in-use/

Iscreamkone

We need to grow a pair and be done with the priests once and for all:

1. We need to take a big slice of their pie to pay for their sins. If we need a referendum to do this then so be it.
2. Their “ethos” is not suitable for state funded schools any more. Their ethos discriminates against women and LGBTQ in our community. They are anti divorce, contraception and abortion. They have raped children in their care and protected the rapists. If we need a referendum to get them out so be it.

downtheroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122614265#Comment_122614265

As true as all that is, and I agree with you, we still have far too many people in the country who tick the roman catholic box on the census, baptise their kids, get married in the church, but voted to repeal the 8th and approve same sex marriage.

These people talk out of both sides of their mouth. Are they afraid of change, who knows.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122614265#Comment_122614265

Not too long from now almost all of the priests, nuns and so-called "brothers" (retch) will be dead, but the power and wealth of the religious orders will still exist, in trusts run by lay people.

The US has seen dioceses and orders go bankrupt because of their crimes, but here in Ireland they get politicians in their thrall to make the taxpayer pick up the tab.

The Michael Woods paedophile bailout is a small fraction of the bank bailout, but far more immoral and indefensible. Somehow the taxpayer got placed on the hook for billions without a Dail vote. He's long rumoured to be in Opus Dei and it would explain much.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122619189#Comment_122619189

I heard the same. I also heard that retirement homes for nuns, priests and "brothers" are top of the scale when it comes to residential care homes. Money no object.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122614278#Comment_122614278

I agree with you to an extent, but on the other hand, and not excusing any of the abuse etc that went on, most of us in Ireland are what could be called "cultural catholics". I think the phrase was coined to count those in the North who don't practice a religion as a way of assigning them to one or other tradition, unionist or nationalist (I'm open to correction though).

But cultural catholics are pretty much the norm in the catholic areas of western and southern Europe today. I'd guess cultural protestants are equally prevalent in protestant areas of Europe!

Hotblack Desiato

I don't think so, in most developed countries people don't identify as catholic (or protestant, etc) unless they actually believe in it. In our benighted island, religion became poltical.

downtheroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122619674#Comment_122619674

Speak for yourself. I want nothing to do with the homophonic, misogynistic child raping organisation that is the catholic church...cultural or not.

byhookorbycrook

Schools can and are being checked for child protection guidelines being implemented. I had to re-do my child protection training again this year as it's a legal requirement. I had to submit my CPD cert to my principal who must keep it on file for inspection. Any school found in breach of child safety legislation by the DES will be rightly hauled over the coals.

csirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122637530#Comment_122637530

Not true. You should look at a letter from the Minister for Education a relative of mine received recently - extracts I put on another thread.

DES has no power to enforce child protection in schools. It only has guidelines.

You probably work for a good school, which, like most schools values child protection and does its best to implement best practise. But if you got a new Principal who didnt give a monkies, nobody would do anything.

There is ZERO child protection compliance being done in schools AND the State does not have a mechanism for investigating allegations or complaints by parents/victims. In fact, the Minister is still referring victims who contact her back to the catholic church.

Iscreamkone

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122637658#Comment_122637658

shouldn’t all abuse allegations be reported to the Gardai? Reporting to anyone else would be a bonus

csirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122637670#Comment_122637670

Yes they should. As any victims group will tell you - it can take years before a case goes to court & only a small % of cases where abuse is established actually end up in court due to various technical legal issues.

So (1) teacher can continue to work, even when under investigation or awaiting decision of the DPP. And (2) where abuse is established, but the DPP does not prosecute, a teacher can still work.

In recent years, DES has allowed teachers with files pending at DPP to teach.

Hotblack Desiato

That's pretty shocking stuff csirl, and shows that despite all the talk, child protection is still not the number one priority as it should be.

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122594426#Comment_122594426

If the state can't confiscate lands or other assets owned by the various religious orders of the RCC, and the orders included in various reports won't willingly contribute to redress/compensation, why can't the government legislate for a new tax charge? There's no need for a referendum to extract money from particular sectors, the state found a way to 'tax' developers with the PartV regulations.

Every year, our politicians manage to find new ways to tax joe public, eg. vacant property tax in 2022, carbon tax in 2023. Let them find a way to tax religious orders on assets used for worship, education, healthcare, social services - they should start by changing the rates exemption in the Valuation Act in the next finance act.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122639366#Comment_122639366

Why, because such taxation schemes would clearly draw in institutions that had nothing to do with it, because tax must be non discriminatory - the zoned land tax issue is a good example of how hard it is to be non-discriminatory. A tax on educational holdings would hit the universities hard for example. A tax specific to religious, while unconstitutional, would also hit groups that were not involved. The mosque at Clonskeagh I'm sure would love your idea.

If you made this "tax" specific to the orders then it merely is a ruse with the same net effect - confiscation, which is illegal. The orders cannot be forced to participate in a voluntary restitution scheme. They can only be forced to participate in the court ordered process which requires a burden of proof higher that a statement of "this happened to me".

If the state wants to run such a scheme then it will have to pay for it.

We might not like it, but that's the law as it stands

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122639452#Comment_122639452

TBH I don't see why rates don't apply to every commercial building in the state just as LPT applies to every residential building. Why shouldn't the religious orders, of whatever denomination, contribute towards the supply of infrastructure and local authority services the same as any other citizen or organisation - they avail of street lighting, water, roads maintenance, policing etc, so shouldn't get special treatment.

Edit: Apologies if this is off topic - probably better left for a different thread.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122639366#Comment_122639366

The promotion of religion should be removed as a legally recognised charitable purpose.