World Cup 2022 - Team and Match Discussion

FatherTed

It's had to compare players of different eras e.g. Pele never got to play in Europe plus rules, conditioning, tactics, money, and travel were all different back then. I'd prefer just to say for example:

Pele, Eusébio, Best, Moore were the greats back in the 60's

Cryuff, Beckenbauer, Muller, Keegan in the 70's

Maradona, Platini, Van Basten in the 80's

Romario, Bergkamp, Zidane in the 90's

Ronaldo(original), Maldini, Henry, Xavi in 2000's

Messi, Ronaldo, Iniesta, Zlatan, Pirlo in the 2010's

Mbappe, tbd in the 2020's

gormdubhgorm

I was thinking that this WC has had more shocks than even the 2002 WC - on the pitch anyway excluding the Keane Saipan incident.

Agent Coulson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120013761#Comment_120013761

He’s a Top Top player who gives 110%

billyhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120015237#Comment_120015237

Maradona also had the best ever individual performance throughout a tournament in 86.

jacool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120014916#Comment_120014916

Video or it didn't happen!

jacool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120015237#Comment_120015237

"But I watched the whole 1970 final repeat on telly once. To see if Pele was any good. He didn’t really stand out to me to be honest."

I agree with you completely. Whenever I want to judge the ability of a player who has played over 800 games, I just take one game and use that as the way to judge. Never lets me down, ever.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120013634#Comment_120013634

Mbappe is a brilliant player but I think the GOAT debate was always re Messi and Ronaldo. On here and elsewhere there was a ridiculous amount of people trying to argue that Ronaldo was better than Messi, he never ever was and yesterday has put that "debate" finally to rest.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120015784#Comment_120015784

Well wouldn’t you think he would stand flashes of brilliance, movement etc. Not the same as just watching clips etc

Have you ever went to the trouble of watching a whole Pele match? It was a WC final. 1970.

Most Pele matches don’t have that coverage. Decent quality images etc. what’s wrong with that? Pele just seemed like a decent player - OK but didn’t stand out IMO.

Or are you too jacool for school to watch any full Pele games?

You just sound bitter about something. I can’t put my finger on it.

But anyway it was an enjoyable WC 2022 great games, shocks and great final what more do you want?

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120015836#Comment_120015836

A lot of that debate came down to popularity and loyalty. It's hard to actually say who is better when the margins are that fine.

In terms of popularity and loyalty I think Ronaldo has absolutely decimated his legacy over the last year. It feels certain now that in years to come when we waffle on as old men and women it's Messi we will be telling the kids about. Ronnie will be in the Eusabio, Di Stefano, Puskas category.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120015933#Comment_120015933

Ah Portuguese Ronaldo will always be considered a great. But the difference between Ronaldo and Messi is Ronaldo could play any style.

Personality wise Ronaldo isn’t right in the head because of his family background. But it is because of his family background that he got his drive to succeed.

At least Ronaldo won’t be crying into a camera like Maradona thinking of the player he ‘could have been’.

Ronaldo has got the last ounce out of his talent through sheer hard work and drive. Ronaldo never polluted his body in contrast to Maradona.

Aqua v Cocaine

Who is the better example as a person? Footballer a different debate. But that is the fun of the discussion.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120016005#Comment_120016005

"Won't be crying into a camera"

You clearly didn't see his last game for Portugal.

rob316

Ronaldo is one of the best goal scorers ever but has never had the ability and talent Messi had. I really don't think he's in the ultimate conversation though, if we are talking generational players that is Messi, maradona, Pele, cryuff. Messi throughout his career and this tournament has done things you can't believe.

That is testament to Ronaldo's drive though to win so many ballon dors in the same era as Messi.

billyhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120016089#Comment_120016089

Messi is a different type of player to Ronaldo. With that low center of gravity Messi is a better dribbler with great balance and poise. He's more of a team player too. Ronaldo has a better shot and is more physical. Some leap on him in the air. I much prefer Messi. He would be harder to mark.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120016048#Comment_120016048

Well played!

billyhead

It's just aswell for Argentina's sake that France were missing the likes of Benzema, Hernandez, Kimpembe, Kante and Pogba otherwise I think France would have won that game yesterday over 90 mins.

The_Kew_Tour

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120013634#Comment_120013634

Maradona is still the GOAT to many.

Was on far worse teams than Messi too.

Just lucky to have seen these talents in our lifetime.

Benimar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120017343#Comment_120017343

Agree re: Maradona.

I think the WC put to bed the Messi or Ronaldo discussion, and the debate (as it always should have been anyway imo) is now Maradona or Messi. Still Maradona for me, but it’s close.

The_Kew_Tour

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120018119#Comment_120018119

From a international point of view its not fair to compare Ronaldo and Messi anyway, as Argentina is 5 times bigger than Portugal. Ronaldo won a Euros with Portugal and semi finals in World Cup so that's still extremely impressive.

Just to be alive to see these players waa a joy. Next batch will have big shoes to fill.

adaminho

https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/992576/soccer-fan-spotted-in-dublin-jersey-at-world-cup-is-proud-limerick-man.html

Some context to that Dublin jersey.

NIMAN

I hate how stories like that become 'news'.

A GAA Jersey at wc final. Big deal.

Osmosis Jones

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120018383#Comment_120018383

I mean it's not like it's front page stuff it's just a fun story in the limerick leader

Bluebb993

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120013146#Comment_120013146

He did get a card

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120018528#Comment_120018528

Yeah but that doesn’t fit the narrative of Argentina getting away with murder

The_Kew_Tour

The penalty they got v Poland was soft but other than that rest were penos.

They got slammed for their antics v Holland but it later turned out that it was the Dutch who were acting the maggot during penalty shootout.

The French media calling Argentina cheats is also bit too funny.

ShamoBuc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120018773#Comment_120018773

To be fair, the ref was literally looking straight at him when he threw the ball away over to the side of the penalty area..... Ref did nothing....... French player fetches the ball and duly misses.....next French penalty, more antics, ...... the ref Then books him.

The ref should have booked him the first time - he didn't.

And I'm glad Argentina won - no narrative, just a simple fact.

The Golden Miller

Posted this on wrong thread. Messi got his world cup but again could of went either way, gave up leads twice. Messi played technically very well for the whole game, but when France pulled them back his response as a leader did nothing to change my mind on him in that regard. Argentina composed themselves well in extra time, and it was a team effort, and Messi contributed and got the goal, as I said his technical ability shone.

But had the penalty shootout gone the other way, he would be rightfully criticised for not leading the charge to counter the pressure they came under, growing in stature and forcing his presence on the game. It's in those sort of moments, in combative gung ho fashion, Maradona rose to the occasion and took the fight to the opposition by himself. He grew taller, and the bigger the occasion and more pressure his team came under, Maradona got better. That was the mark of his greatness. He could force his will on a game.

When comparing them, you'd say Messi was slightly the better dribbler and goalscorer, Maradona the better playmaker and passer. But your splitting hairs either way. They are eerily similar in their attributes. But when it comes to presence, character and leadership, taking hold of a game, Maradona is miles ahead. And for many that will always separate them.

Maradona was the small kid, with a huge heart, that he wore on his sleeve, and it showed. They're both the two greatest with Cruyff, but Maradona carried that something extra special imo

The Golden Miller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120015836#Comment_120015836

Ronaldo should be in a debate with the great goalscorers, not one with Messi, Maradona, Cruyff and the truely great all rounded players who were the fulcrum of their teams in the centre.

He was a goalscoring outlet who relied on others to create, the true greats were the creators, goal scorers, playmakers, who had that all round ability.

I don't see how someone who was so limited in so many technical facets of the game can be in the conversation, no matter how many goals they scored. The same way Gerd Muller isn't in the conversation, when we're discussing the very greatest in the game.

But as others have said, it's positive that the conversation will now move to Messi v Maradona. But I'll never understand why Cruyff gets relegated to a level just outside this. He's up there with those two, they are the 3 true greats

Did you smash it

I don’t know people mean when they say maradona is better than Messi. Like if they were magically transported to a pitch where they were both in their prime and playing against each other that maradona would outperform Messi? Or what do they mean?

The Golden Miller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120019309#Comment_120019309

They are similar in playing ability, but Maradona carried a presence and pensonality that could elevate the most average side to greatness. Carry them on his back and take the game to the opposition single handedly, a towering presence who could nearly will his team over the line. Messi doesn't carry this presence or leadership

WesternZulu

I think ability wise Maradona and Messi are probably inseparable.

However, Messi has performed to such a high standard way longer that Maradona ever had. For that reason alone I believe he is the better player.

The Golden Miller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120019452#Comment_120019452

Maradona performed to an elite level for nearly 20 years, despite lacking the science and conditioning of today, and drug abuse, that was how talented he was. Unheard of then, and to achieve what he did was phenomenal. Miracle level stuff

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120019612#Comment_120019612

20 years is a major stretch. Would say more like 10, from Boca till the end of his time at Napoli and his drug ban from football… maybe a hair earlier to include some of his latter Argentinos time, but that’s tougher to argue as elite.

Did you smash it

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120019700#Comment_120019700

In fairness to maradona he won South American player of the year in 1995. I don’t know the story behind that but I’d like to hear it.

20 years is still a stretch

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120019717#Comment_120019717

I suppose it depends on what we’re calling ‘elite’. Would we say Alvarez was elite winning the same award in 2021? I’d have said Elite meant playing exceptionally well, at the very top level.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120019717#Comment_120019717

I’m surprised myself. His senior career was 21 years. Debatable how much was at the top level, but that’s still pretty impressive given his problems.

Did you smash it

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120019744#Comment_120019744

Actually I’m wrong, he came second in 1995 to Enzo Francesoli

The Golden Miller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120019700#Comment_120019700

I said nearly. I suppose I'm talking 77-92. 15 years then, with patches of greatness afterwards. Without the science and conditioning of today, and drug abuse, the longevity argument can't be used against him is my point

The Golden Miller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120019744#Comment_120019744

Answer= genius.

He didn't even need his pace to run a game from the centre, passing and dictating the tempo of a game with his eyes closed. Spreading the ball and playmaking at will. Unheard off. Could of stood in the centre and did the same at 44

martyos121

Everyone is always very quick to use Maradona’s drink and drug habits to highlight his talent in playing so well despite it. Nobody ever mentions the fact that he wasn’t even close to being the only footballer heavily abusing one or both, and the fact that he was coming up against these players regularly.

Maradona was before my time so I can’t comment too much on his ability, but I can’t actually fathom someone better at football than Messi, and he’s been at that high level for such a long time now. By all accounts, Maradona didn’t quite match his longevity.

It doesn’t matter a jot who’s actually “the GOAT” though. It’s always going to be subjective.

It absolutely is not Cristiano Ronaldo though, there just isn’t an argument to be made for him anymore.

The Golden Miller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120020179#Comment_120020179

How many Italian defenders, pure hatchet men in the 80s, with 5 man defences, were on drugs? And these were the greatest defenders we've seen. Against a man in a subpar team, effectively playing with a medicine ball. On mud pitches where nothing favoured the attacker! Could Messi do it, I'd genuinely have my doubts. Yes, THATS how good Diego was!

The little man with the big heart. A giant amongst mere mortals. Cometh the hour, cometh the man! Your nation needs you, enter Maradona!

Bleating Lamb

I think something that needs to be taken into account when comparing Maradona to Messi is the state of the pitches in Maradona's day.To see his close control on pitches that amounted to cabbage patches was astounding.Another player with incredible close control on those type of pitches was Best.

Apart from maybe the first few years of his career Messi has enjoyed the advantage of playing on virtual carpets in comparison to the pitches Maradona played on.

Another huge hindrance to Maradona and likes of Best for that matter was fact they got kicked up and down pitches by brute defenders from one end of the Season to the other.

The Golden Miller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120020297#Comment_120020297

I agree, but to be fair to Messi, he would of been up for a battle. I'd just be surprised if he could hold his level to Maradona or Cruyff's form under those conditions. But I wouldn't put it past him in fairness

The Golden Miller

Cruyff, Messi, Maradona. Hopefully the general consensus will remember these 3 names above all others in time. We 3 kings!

WesternZulu

You can say all you want about pitches, tackles, better defenders etc. but the one thing Maradona hadn't to contend with was better tactics and systems.

I think it was easier for individual players to stand out back in the day because they the game was more frantic. Something which is often overlooked when taking about Messi Vs Maradona.

Look at highlights from even the 1994 WC and it's astonishing how much time and space Maradona had on the ball. I'm sure it was even more obvious back in the late 70s and 80s. I know you can say that's the sign of a good player but that sort of luxury won't be afforded to a player today.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120020291#Comment_120020291

These arguments are essentially pointless as there are to many variables in how the game was played at the time. I think you’re being harsh on Messi though, not sure there can be any doubt that he could have played at anytime, as the guy is a genius (as was Diego of course).

slightly off subject but Martinez must be the biggest prat in the world, consistently mocking Mbappe who scored four past him. The argie team(s) in general just seem so unlikeable!

The_Kew_Tour

To knock Messi or Maradona would be a sin, but also to not put Ronaldo right up there would be laughable too.

Actually the Brazilian one also deserves be high up.

Only a handful have achieved what these have. That makes any of them remarkable and its all subjective.

Just enjoy being alive to see them all.

Weepsie

Big problem with some of these debates are they are far too forward/attacking player centric.

Maldini, Baresi, Beckenbaur, Matthaus, are just a handful of defensive footballers whonshould really be given more consideration in the conversation. Without the likes of them the others are not making the headlines in the first place. Too much is placed in skill, stats and trophy haul.

These all had great skill, but also all the off the ball awareness, vision and the other intangibles that just make them stand out.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120020729#Comment_120020729

Mbappe can remind him he has a world cup, is the highest paid player in the world, and will be still at the tail end of world cups for another 8-12 years

jacool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120021800#Comment_120021800

..... and has scored more goals in World Cup Final games than anyone else in the history of the competition.

Did you smash it

The really scummy thing is Martinez was consoling Mbappe at the end.

if you’re a shithouse, you’re a shithouse but don’t be two faced