F1 2023 thread

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120723769#Comment_120723769

Ah, yeah but its relatively new. The first cars famously had a bloke walking in front of it waving a flag.

FE tech is miles behind ICE engines in F1. Not as fast and can't go as far. Imgine the difference between the 1950s F1 cars and the 1980s F1 cars. 30 uears of development without all the resources they have to develop today. Now imagine FE in 30 years with all the development resources they have available and the will to develop electric vehicles.

mickdw

Formula e is nowhere.

If F1 went full electric in 2030 or so, the scale of the whole enterprise would instantly put it out in front of Formula e powertrain wise given the money, brains, brands and following of the sport.

I don't see f1 sitting back and letting Formula e take over as the cutting edge tech sport. Not a hope.

flazio

You know there's scope for peaceful co existence right?

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120723931#Comment_120723931

I doubt it. If F1 went electric, how would FE survive?

They co-exist right now while they're quite different and F1 is still ICE based.

AMKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120724151#Comment_120724151

I doubt it. If F1 went electric, how would FE survive?

If F1 went electric would it even survive? It would potentially lose loads of fans who watch it for the noise and the engines. What noise you say. Well it might not be as loud as 15 years ago but sure the V8s were not as load as the V10s before them and they were not as load as the V12s before them etc.

Formula E nearly went bust after a few years but has not and has a steady stream of fans now. Would they watch F1 too if it went fully electric? Possibly or possibly not.

Formula 1 could find itself losing fans and not getting new ones soon and then in big trouble. Sure maybe in 20 or 30 years it might manage it but I do not think it will be in the next 10 to 15 years anyway.

quokula

F1 won't go electric, which is how FE will survive. They can coexist peacefully just fine.

They didn't stop horse racing when cars were invented and there is no reason to stop racing cars with engines just because transport is now electric. Elite footballers get on just fine playing in studded football boots even though that footwear is pretty useless for walking to work. We are many many decades away from an electric car doing a 300km race at anywhere close to the speed of F1, if ever, and there is no reason for the sport to switch to electric until that is a possibility.

tigerboon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120723060#Comment_120723060

WEC will likely be the biggest rival to F1. Le Mans next year will have 22 hypercar grid spaces. A lot of big manufacturers, Toyota, Ferrari, Peugeot, Porsche, Lamborghini, Alpine, Cadillac, BMW. They obviously see the direction the WEC rules are heading as being more relevant. Toyota going hydrogen for example, which the company has stated is where they see the future, not electric. Hypercar is a BoP class which allows manufacturers to go different directions.

There's a lot of great drivers outside F1.

DRS is F1s equivalent to a fake boost zone. The ability to defend is taken from the driver in front. Should be gotten rid of or allow everyone to use it either for a defined time (like push to pass in indycar) or whenever they want, whether attacking or defending. Tyres that last 20 minutes are a joke as well as having to use 2 compounds. Someone mentioned the pinnacle of technology in F1. F1 cars are relying on how they use tyres and aerodynamics.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120725272#Comment_120725272

If F1 went electric there is no way F1 and FE would co-exist. They would likely merge or one would take over the other.

Unless all top tier racing goes electric, there would be no point in them having competing electric formulae.

flazio

The direction they want to go is hydrogen from what I gather. It can burn similar to petrol and engines can make the same noises.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120725276#Comment_120725276

The football a analogy is weak. Football hasn't built its reputation as the trailblazer of cutting edge real life technology. It built its popularity on other foundations which will never be available to F1 such as accessibility (jumpers for goalposts and so on).

The horse racing analogy is better. But likewise, horse husbandry, training and racing has a history thousands of years old. F1 is old at 70 years, but it's not like horse racing.

Age and cultural popularity aside, the difference between horse and car racing is much greater than the difference between F1 with ICE power and F1 with electric power.

F1 has a choice. Keep with its modus operandi of being the cutting edge of future technology, or abandon that tradition in favour of sticking with old ICE technology. I don't know what they'll do innthe medium to long term. F1 might not even exist in the long term.

Harika

Le mans was thinking of going hydrogen for 2030, stupid as battery technology should be far further than now. Efuels will be the gap until then. https://www.motorsport.com/lemans/news/le-mans-wants-hydrogen-only-top-class-by-2030/10474311/

If we look at comparison, we can look at series that are sticking with the petrol engines only. NASCAR & DTM both are haemorrhaging fans and DTM had to reinvent and be sold to survive. Btcc stcc are shadow of themselves.

In comparison

F1 is booming, wec on the high although you would expect them to be more volatile soon enough. Manufacturer wanting to go there as hybrid is atm the selling point. In some years battery technology will be strong enough to replace the combustion engine. Will be a break but for future fans that only know hybrid turbos just another step.

dulpit

When will the gap between Verstappen and Perez and Alonso and Stroll become an issue? Both ferrari and Mercedes have evenly matched drivers, but red bull and Aston don't. And Aston in particular are missing out on a decent chunk of points at this stage.

Harika

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120731667#Comment_120731667

Red Bull are leading comfortable, so no issue.

Aston Martin will look sooner than later to 2024 at the driver lineup. Still who is available to offer an improvement?

quokula

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120731667#Comment_120731667

The problem is when you have a driver of the caliber of Verstappen or Alonso, nobody is going to match up to them in the other seat. Remember that Max was often a minute or more ahead of Gasly and Albon by the end of every race, both of whom have proven to be very fine drivers at other teams - for example a simple mathematical qualifying gap comparison of Russell vs Latifi then Latifi vs Albon in consecutive Williams seasons suggests that Albon is a quicker driver than Russell unless Latifi somehow dramatically lost performance from one year to the next. Meanwhile Perez has had an extremely solid career prior to joining Red Bull, often dragging less competitive cars to podiums and even a victory. He's just not in the same league as his current teammate but nobody is.

Meanwhile for his part, back in the day Alonso completely destroyed fellow world champion Kimi Raikkonen in the same car, as he did to almost-world-champion Felipe Massa before that. I don't think Fernando is quite the same driver he was back then as age catches up on everyone and he was outscored by Ocon over their time together at Alpine, the first teammate to ever do that in his career albeit aided by a lot of luck and reliability. But he's clearly got a new impetus and motivation with a more competitive car and he's looked like he's been performing close to his best again.

It's easy to look at other teams and say they have more evenly matched drivers, but that's easier to achieve without that kind of once in a generation talent in one of the seats that RB and AM currently enjoy.

Jordan 199

Since Red Bull won their 100th race yesterday, here is an article about when other teams won their 100th race.

klose

Is DeVries in risk of getting the chop? I know the Alpha Tauri package ain't up to much, but he's really languishing at the back, would they not prefer Liam Lawson getting mileage considering Nyck isn't a red bull academy driver?

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120724151#Comment_120724151

F1 is leaning more towards sustainability, which isn't fully electric, but a vastly reduced carbon footprint with the eco-fuels they are developing.

Frank Bullitt

Alonso has scored more points this season, than his previous 7 seasons in F1 combined. That actually makes me happy.

PsychoPete

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120736922#Comment_120736922

You'd assume they thought that De Vries would do a solid job because he's an experienced racer but he doesn't look up too it at all. I thought Lawson would have gotten the seat, he's driving pretty good and he's currently 2nd in Super Formula. He's probably contracted to do the full season maybe ? Hard to see De Vries in F1 next season

thefa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120737018#Comment_120737018

Hell yeah. Some of those barren seasons were his own doing but great to see him have the opportunity and prove he’s still got it near the front. Just need a win now.

afatbollix

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120737014#Comment_120737014

WEC is already great, Making fuel from the waste from the wine making industry. It has manufacturers hounding the EU saying why ban engines when we can run them on wine!

This is where R&D money is being poured in at the moment, Not just on engines but on fuels/oils. This is where F1 should be heading.

I also like the idea of WEC where they give them how much power they have over a lap and just let them at it, Different engines, fuels and hybrid systems. For F1 budgets it's mostly put down as a R&D budget as they get more tax breaks than putting it down as marketing so let them off to spend billions on a crazy idea, instead of making a floor with little bits that get that 0.1 a lap but we can't understand why Red bull is faster than a merc!

CONSI

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120737129#Comment_120737129

Could alpha Tauri get Ricciardo for the rest of the season as part of the wider Red Bull family...

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120737378#Comment_120737378

F1 is really leaning into it also though. I think motorsport as a whole will be far more sustainable in the coming years than ever before.

Hijpo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120739820#Comment_120739820

A couple of weeks ago Marko hinted that this would be the case if DeV didn't raise his game.

Dont be at yourself

Ric could be in the red bull with Perez back to AT on current form.

NinjaTruncs

That is highly unlikely. The only way I see Perez leaving red bull mid season is if he stops scoring any points. As long as he helps with the constructors and doesn't impede Max winning the driver's championship Perez will have done his job.

The only other way I see it happening is if Max's form dips, then there would be more pressure on Perez to help guarantee the constructors championship.

But as things are going Perez is doing enough to keep his seat for the rest of the year. Next year is a different story though.

PsychoPete

I honestly don't think he's doing enough, He hasn't got that RedBull into 4 out of 7 Q1's which is slightly embarrassing. Checos qualifying is pretty poor overall. He shouldn't be as far behind Verstappen as he has been even if you took Verstappen out of the championship, Checo still wouldn't win it

flazio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120742408#Comment_120742408

All 20 drivers get into Q1, it's Q3 he's struggling with. And it's 4 out of 8 as he qualified on the front row alongside LeClerc in the Baku Sprint.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120742408#Comment_120742408

He still wouldn't win the championship in the best car. That's the story with Perez. He's alright, he's not bad, he's a bit above average, but that's it. He has a real skill for getting the best out of tyres on a long stint. And that's a handy skill a few times a season, but it does not a top driver make.

He's being judged against the standards of a top driver and falling well short. But he was hired as a second driver to support max. A "tail gunner" as he was described when he was able to get far enough up the grid to do the job. He's falling short of that too at the moment but he's missing that target by a smaller margin than he's missing the target of being a top driver. He's basically irrelevant to Max at the moment. He's just scoring points in the constructors.

There's no way they'll replace him mid-season but he might have to argue for his place next season. I suspect he'll win that argument but we'll have to see how it goes.

recyclebin

Perez is doing just like Ferrari did last season. He gave everybody false hope at the start of the season with some nice wins, but since then he has been awful. He just needs to get back to being somewhere in the middle to keep his seat. There is no competition in the constructors, Aston Martin only have one good driver, and Mercedes are not going to beat Red Bull either.

Red Bull have won 18 out of the last 19 races. This kind of domination isn't good for the sport, especially if they want to grow the casual American fan base. The novelty of Miami and Vegas could wear off pretty quickly.