€1,350/cow payment to cut suckler numbers

alps

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120021112#Comment_120021112

Emissions from the meal counted elsewhere..

The way the inventories are set up, it's nonsensenical..

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120021662#Comment_120021662

That and they are choosey where they buy there calves. They do not end up buying calves bred by KYA or from his son's either.

Ya some cattle are profitable at present to do that with. Wait until 50% of the kill is starting to be squeezed into 20 weeks and the factories are swamped with 230-280kg carcasses. It will be similar to the 400kg plus penalty that was in place for Continental cattle a few years ago

Grueller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120021890#Comment_120021890

I'd thank this twice if I could

tanko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120021076#Comment_120021076

When did dairy farmers in NZ cut emissions by 50% and still maintain numbers??

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120022939#Comment_120022939

That’s there long term plan from what I saw online

47% by 2050 https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2022-11-13/new-zealand-targets-cow-burps-to-help-reduce-global-warming

tanko

So after all the waffle and clickbait headlines on the front of the comic there is going to be no payment to reduce the number of Suckers.

Anto_Meath

@tanko you should know by now the only thing you can believe in the comic is the date on the top of each page & it is only right for 1 day in the week...

https://www.farmersjournal.ie/nz-bolus-project-aiming-to-cut-methane-emissions-by-70-741549

The bolus option could be a runner. Maybe this kind of approach should be looked at.

Most of the lads in dairy have head scoops and I’d say a fair shot of the lads left in sucklers have them.

A bolus is surely a lot cheaper than this daft proposed idea of paying for lads to cull dairy or beef cows.

Birdnuts

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120027071#Comment_120027071

FFG don't even bother hiding the fact anymore that they are simply enablers for financial parasites across sectors from farming, energy, housing policy etc.

The meat industry is Mickey Mouse stuff to the government. Compare the likes of abp to the importance of an apple or a Pfizer to the Irish economy.

If New Zealand can do 70% then we can surely consider something similar and significantly weaken the emissions argument around livestock

tanko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120027208#Comment_120027208

When did NZ do 70%??

Birdnuts

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120027208#Comment_120027208

Maybe , but the industry via the bould Larry etc. has very powerful connections at the top of FFG that impacts the most important agri sectors here in a variety of subtle and not so subtle ways. Thats before you talk about the variety of other big agri business that has a vested interest in keeping the high input model going at all costs here.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120027247#Comment_120027247

That’s what they are looking in to now with blouses. It’s on the Irish farmers journal website

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120027257#Comment_120027257

Maybe in the past. Id say if Tim Cook and Larry were both looking for something then Larry would have to wait.

Goodman is well diversified anyway. Id say will win always. The rising tide set him up. Sure didn’t he invest extremely wisely in healthcare and hotels etc

JohnChadwick

Pity there wasn't a lobby group to advocate for that suckler cull payment. Although glad in one way as I can get out of them on my own terms now, without been tied to the timeline of some scheme.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120027359#Comment_120027359

The cull price is good. Sure if you had they ready this year in May you could have got 4.70 a kilo.

JohnChadwick

They won't be ready for next year's May, not to mind last year's. The 1350 so called cull scheme could have been a nice one on top though.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120027423#Comment_120027423

1350 on top of cow that will make more than that in the factory. There are people choosing between heating and eating and they are going to use tax payers money for this?

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120027208#Comment_120027208

Food and drink exports are worth about 30 billion and employ about over a quarter of a million people. Never underestimate there value and I doubt the government do either

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120027582#Comment_120027582

I wouldn’t either but wages and tax wise the fdi is in a different league.

The New Zealand approach is well worth considering.

alps

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120027437#Comment_120027437

They are going to use taxpayers money to pay for the whole of the reductions, be it renewable energy, AD, electric cars, 3 busses a day for 70% of the people, solar, house refits....there should be no guilt from the farming sector to expect that the taxpayer should pony up for a management decision that a farmer takes for the common good.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120027437#Comment_120027437

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120027672#Comment_120027672

It wrong to give farmers a dig out to exit sucklers and change to other systems that will benefit climate and other farmers but it ok to have suckler cow supports that are proposed to be 200+/cow that will mainly benefit processors

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120027672#Comment_120027672

Surely funding methane reduction supplements is a more cost effective option?

A guy or girl cuts cows numbers be in beef or dairy (latest leaks suggest both categories are included) reducing output.

This does absolutely nothing for the remaining herd in terms of methane reduction.

The only legs the likes of John Gibbons has to stand on is the methane emissions of the active herd and pollution of rivers from fertiliser run off.

Methane reducing supplements and use of clovers / mss and improving fertiliser usage can defeat his arguments.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120027681#Comment_120027681

I’d be against blanket subsidies without improvements in terms of calves weaned per cow and lower emissions etc

You see lads on here debating keeping bullocks off dairy cows for a third winter and the likes of me that often finish suckler bred stock off grass (well under 30 months) are the enemy?

Ponying up 1350 for someone to cull cows and move from bad suckler farmers to bad finishers of beef stock will only drive up cheques for lads that can get stock away sooner

Anto_Meath

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120027672#Comment_120027672

Don't forget farmers are tax payers too.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120027689#Comment_120027689

That is tying payments to production, Larry and co love that

wrangler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120028664#Comment_120028664

And why not, that's their business. They're a fool if they take the climate change restrictions serious because no one else does.

We're certainly not ''all in this together''.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120028664#Comment_120028664

Say what you want about Larry but he pays the same day.

Got to be a margin in beef prices with the last year especially if you are good on costs

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120028702#Comment_120028702

Yes it's there business but that is no reason why we should allow payments that support them rather than farmers

As you say ''We're certainly not all in this together''

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120029288#Comment_120029288

I did not say Larry, I said ''Larry and co'' it an expression to indicate all processors

Ya there has been a margin this and last year. However most of us want to make sure it continues we all.know what happened when there is excess production

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120029639#Comment_120029639

Second half of 2020 was good too.

Early season bonus of 30 cent on Angus and I think Hereford. Might tempt more dairy lads to carry to finish

Base price

Article from Adam Woods in the Farmers Journal regarding the future of suckler cows. Interesting to see the graphs showing the predicted growth of the dairy herd till 2030 and the demise of the suckler cow.

https://www.farmersjournal.ie/long-read-to-hell-or-the-hills-for-the-irish-suckler-cow-735431

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120043634#Comment_120043634

TBH base it's a load of crap. He is going off at tangents and linking in BPS restructuring.

He gives the figure of 14k/ year of a loss to a 537/HA payment. That 14k loss would be on a 150 acre farm he never said the farm area or else I missed it.

Next to put perceptive on it that farmer has a 32k payment per year and probably averaged 36-38k/ year over the last 20 years or about 750k in BPS payments without any other environment or ANC payment. ANC would have added. ANC would have added another 70k.

He gives s bemoaning that the exit payment that everybody says will not happen should be targeted to existing to the scared suckler cow farmer.

Very few suckler farmers I knew had payments above 300/ HA. He is on about finishers and grain men subsidizing there production with there payments. Basically they want the impoverishment of all farmers to continue.

Everyone must be making money out of sucklers except the farmers having them

dh1985

You must have interpreted that article very different than I. The point I understood he was trying to make was that the future for suckler cows in the next few years will have a number of roadblocks that will lead to its demise. Don't think he was pegging one sector of agriculture against another but just outlining some factors that will impact a particular sector.

If there is to be a counterbalance to the increase in the dairy herd it will need to come from suckler herd. Not from the finishers or grain men. That's what he is outlining, and how it might be achieved. Nothing more.

tanko

Surely banding, reduction in chemical fertiliser use and other measures to reduce stocking rates on dairy farms will put a stop to the expansion of the dairy herd or maybe lead to a reduction in dairy cow numbers, who knows. There’s a boom in dairying at the moment, i’ve never seen a boom in any area that wasn’t followed by a bust.

Geuze

I am not a farmer, so please accept my apologies for not knowing much.

AFAIK, a suckler farmer has X cows, and produces (hopefully) X calves per year, and the main income is from selling the calves.

The suckler cows are not dairy breeds.

A suckler farmer sells the calves at various ages (I'm not clear here) at marts, and the buyers are often larger beef farmers in east of Ireland, who finish the cattle, and then sell to factory.

One question: presuming a constant demand for beef, if the suckler herd decreases, where will the replacement supply of beef come from?

Dairy bull calves?

wrangler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120044200#Comment_120044200

Plenty of suckler farmers had payments over 600/ha, myself included.

The figures he's using is from an example that was put up at their CAP meetings around the country.

I can assure you that my Payments have reduced by 14000/yr and more and I don't have 150 acres.

As far as I know Adam woods is a better than average suckler/sheep farmer

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120044629#Comment_120044629

There is no roadblocks to suckler cows. The simple fact that a cow that produces 0.8 calves/ years is not economically viable and that farmers that are farming them if given other options will exit, they will even exit without the other options. The only thing that held numbers up over the last few years was BEEP and the projection of an exit payment.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120044715#Comment_120044715

I think that dairy expansion will slow down faster than many imagine unless milk prices are constantly above 55-60c/ L. Not sure if there will be a bust as such. Economic factors and costs are in Ireland favour compared to production systems depending on grain. However individual farmers who expanded too fast may come under financial pressure especially where rents are above 400/HA.

Labour will become an impediment as well to dairy expansion. In the next 3-4 years the living wage is coming in at 14/hour. Calculating in holidays, employer PRSI, new sick pay regulations and maybe a pension contribution labour costs will be 20/ hour

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120044722#Comment_120044722

Most suckler farmers are along the west coast and the border areas. Yest there was some larger herds on better land, but grain or dairy were better options.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120044726#Comment_120044726

The 14k was the project loss on a farm who's BPS was 537/ ha over the next 4 years. You indicate that your payment is similar and you lost more over the last 20.

I was giving context to it. This would not have be an average suckler farmer back when payment were decoupled in 2002 nor were they average suckler farm sizes

Average herd have historically been in the 22ish number at present the average herd is 16 cows.

So linking loss in BPS payments in an article about reduction in suckler numbers is pure propaganda.

I am not sure what sort of suckler or sheep farmer he is when he is trying to justify what is a loss making system in his own words.

Dunedin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120044722#Comment_120044722

I’ll answer your question seeing as Bass didn’t!!!

You’re pretty spot on. Calves would be sold as weanlings anywhere from 6 months on depending on the individual farmer.

Yes to your question. If sucklers go then beef will be through the dairy farms. Not all necessarily bulls though. Dairy farmers will have a mix of dairy and beef calves. The Holstein-Friesian heifers will be kept as replacements and and the Holstein-Friesian bulls will go to beef. the beef calves will be both bulls and heifers and all will go through the beef chain.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120045614#Comment_120045614

Sorry Dunedin forgot to answer that part of @Geuze question. There is another bit to add. Firstly over the last twelve years dairy cows have gone from 1.1 million to 1.55 million and will continue to rise and we are probably facing an export embargo for calves under six months ( and maybe a complete export embargo another 100 k) which will add 1600-200k animals to the finished kill.

Suckler cows will not disappear completely. They will probably stabilise around the 500k mark where they were pre the introduction of suckler premia in the early 1990's

wrangler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120045266#Comment_120045266

He's not justifying sucklers but trying a forecast of what's going to happen.

Thinking of averages, if the average was the norm then we'd all be walking around with less than two legs,

Including hobby farmers in the average doesn't give a true picture, likewise with average farm incomes, there's a lot of messers included in those figures. Anyone with less than 20 cows isn't going to come under pressure if income drops in sucklers, Their 'AVERAGE ' income will be higher than a lot of full time farmers so it's proper order to only refer to a 50 suckler cow farm.

Finally unless that article is read through your biased eyes, there's no where he's trying to justify sucklers, he's telling it the way it is.

Lately there was posts on here accusing IFJ of lying about the suckler reduction scheme when it was proposed in food vision yet ministers referred to it after, reflecting how sad some farmers are. '

Many times I've had to sort stupid mistakes for farmers and had to say ''If you'd bought a journal that wouldn't have happened'' but there you go.

Some farmers have missed sending in their BPS application because they didn't buy a journal. need I say more

Won’t there be a natural reduction in numbers anyway.

1) Typical beef farmer is in their late 50s meaning more will exit sucklers/ beef

2) Export options for dairy calves will diminish meaning more land will have to used to keep them here

3) Institutional investors will have the resources to outbid farmers to buy land for long term investments like forestry etc

4) Those that previously rented out land to farmers will secure higher rents off institutional investors

5) The derogation issue

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120045995#Comment_120045995

I read the article, I re-read the article.

How come an article headlined

''Long Read to hell or the hills for Irish sucklers''

needed to verge into BPS redistribution.

Averages tell you a lot about any industry. You again like many just treat any smaller operator as a hobby farmer. Unless you are up over 200 acres any drystock operations can be run part-time. with sucklers on such an operation you only need to be full-time at calving.

Basically the article was just another cripping session against the redirection of payments so that they are not subsidising processor's or large dairy operations. Mind you it was not just limited to Ireland.

Farmers that need the rag to remember when to apply for anything are less and less now. This idea that lads at certain/ lower numbers are Messer's. None of these lads started out with 150 acre farms handed to them or collected a large compensation package because a motorway or road passed through there land.

Being commercial is the only answer. Production related subsidies only f@@ks it for the rest of us.

Adam's article seems to want to trap suckler farmers within the system producing a calf that everyone else makes a turn out of not the producer.

Those on better land with substantial holdings have options. Why should a cohort of suckler farmers have an issue if other exit are being supported but they are not.

If suckler are profitable there is no problem. However there is an agenda to keep suckler at an unrealistic level which neither benefits other drystock farmers or even other suckler farmers.

The less suckler farmers there is the more of a market there is for there product. Most of us understand the processors will pay less the more we produce

wrangler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120046259#Comment_120046259

Processors will sell whatever is produced...... the only difference is that there'll be more costs against the beast that's processed in a factory that's not in full production and ''the animal pays for everything''.

Processors won't contract to supply where they can't supply, they won't back themselves into a corner that they have to cut their margin.

I had my debts/loans paid before I got any compensation, and was set up with a good entitlement so the compensation made very little difference to my income or the farm,

You're just another conspiracy theorist, reading things that aren't there

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120046635#Comment_120046635

What we have learned is when there is too much production the processors either find it hard to sell it or increase there margin substantially. There answer to that is to reduce prices to below the cost of production.

Remember in over twenty years since a beef plant went into liquidation in Ireland. It has not happened in any other industry.

We all remember the carry on in 2019 when they had adequate supply but decided to keep dropping prices to farmers, some procurement managers were glorying in it.

Yes the beast has to pay for the whole lot however the more production the lower the price the processors pay the farmer.

We are all making a few bob out of it now. We have to deal with the reality on the ground. However there is a few lazy hobby farmers these are the real one lads with substantial holdings who will not change over to profitable production systems. Rather they want to be subsidised right left and center continue producing a product that is not commercially ( even though they like to think it is) viable.

They want to be allowed to farm this system with shiny toys and be considered progressive and dear Adam is there main cheer leader.

We were all told how good these lads were. The top f@@king 10%. But like the emperor who got new clothes we now know they were really just naked

wrangler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120048302#Comment_120048302

Cop yourself on , farmers are going to be subsidised still but in a different way, it's still going to be a glorified dole or farm assist.

But the sensible ones will follow the money, same as anytime. don't kid yourself that they'll produce less just to keep the price up. they'll produce less because they'll get subsidies (dole) to do so.

MY enterprises here since decoupling were always profitable and I also had 40000 reasons to draw subsidies, all of them euros,

so stop this shi.. about profitability.

wrangler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120048359#Comment_120048359

There is no negatives, same as there wasn't negatives when I was accumulating entitlements. after decoupling there was no onus to produce anything.

wrangler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120048395#Comment_120048395

The reps on Commitees are elected by farmers, they're the ones that decide policy.

If the decision comes between no subsidy and a subsidy linked to production, you take the latter.

The schemes that are coming down the road are more like a farmers dole than anything that came before so that's the way they've made us now.

Farmers are well able to harvest minnows too given the chance, no one better. everyone'll do what they can get away with, their 'holier than thou' attitude doesn't stand up

It's called business

The IFA are an embarrassment. The ifa president was on prime time and got absolutely schooled by George Monbiot.

The New Zealand approach around retaining numbers and reducing emissions is the answer but we rely on the likes of teagasc, the ifa and fj in this country.

alps

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120048471#Comment_120048471

Farm orgs were reserving their position on it until the money is shown to be there for it. Too much forked tongue messaging from that Minister over the past 2 years to trust him at this stage. Macra against it as they see it being an end to generational renewal and routes to progress for incoming farmers.

wrangler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120048471#Comment_120048471

All farm organisations are against it , if you're not a member of IFA or if you're not actively involved you can't complain about their policies if they don't suit you.