Help - No place offered for secondary school because deemed too young

TheWonderLlama

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119958610#Comment_119958610

but why put the child on a waiting list then? Why did the school not say, "child is too young, according to our admissions policy, come back next year"?

KaneToad

"● The student will not have reached her twelfth birthday before the 1st of January that falls during her first academic year in the school. (Department of Education and Skills’ regulation)."

It does indeed look like they have worded it incorrectly. Surely they mean "the 1st of Jan that falls during the year the student enrolls in the school".

Otherwise they would be saying that they are willing to take 11 yr olds in the September who will be 12 by Dec 31st?

csirl

All sounds a bit fishy to me. Essentially the local school is saying:

1. There are over 100 kids in the town who will finish primary but wont get a place in the local school.

2. If they are using age, then a child born on 3rd Jan would be at or near the top of the list - surely there arent 100+ kids born on either 1st or 2nd January?

I'd a relative who was in a similar position - was only boy in his primary school class refused entry to the local secondary. Parents contacted the school and asked for the data i.e. exact numbers admitted under each criteria on admission policy (i.e. siblings of existing, local area,each feeder schools etc). 24hrs later they were offered a place. Anecdotely there were kids outside the area who'd been offered places contrary to the policy and the exact numbers would expose this.

I believe refusals can be appealed to the Department? As with my relative, good idea to have the exact data when appealing.

LBUR02

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119966651#Comment_119966651

Thank you so much for this - I am going to request the data also.

LBUR02

Sorry I havent been back in a few days - between work and dealing with this issue I have had no time.

Basically I am no further on, I still have not heard anything from the school regarding a 2nd round offer - no email, letter or phonecall. Despite calling the girls school on friday and monday nobody had bothered to call me back. I then called into both schools yesterday and was told in both that nobody was available to talk with me. I asked nicely once again could they get someone to phone me - still no call back from either school

I think there is no chance whatsover of her being offered a place in the mixed school - Im told unofficially boys will be given preference as this is the only school boys can attend. I have remained calm and respectful with both schools during all this process but its getting very hard to remain calm with them!

At this stage I need to know if she is still on the waiting list and will there be 3rd round offers. What is next in this process - Do I need apply to keep her name on the list ( we needed to do this for the 2nd round offers) but there is no communication.

I have also put in late applications for all secondary schools within 1 hour drive radius.

ohnonotgmail

Have you considered getting a local TD involved?

LBUR02

Someone asked on Monday what the selection criteria is - See below summarised version

1. Sisters of girls or sisters of past pupils who attended the school
2. Girls enrolled in 6th class in the following primary schools - a list of schools is given. My daughters school is one of these schools. She also should have been offered a place based on this alone
3. Girls in 6th class who live in the county
4. All other applicants

In the event that it is still oversubscribed the remaining applicants will be placed in container. The names will be drawn from the container - until all places are allocated. When all places have been allocated the remining names are put on a waiting list in order of being pulled from container.

This process is supervised by the principle, a member of the parents Association and a member of the local gardai.

LBUR02

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119966812#Comment_119966812

Thanks you for your reply. Yeah thats my next move for today.

Former Former Former

@LBUR02 be very specific here - your opening post says "it appears that..." your daughter was denied a place based on age.

Did the school actually tell you that? If not, do not go contacting your TD until you have confirmation from the school as to why you didn't get a place.

The criteria you listed above are not the rankings for an oversubscription situation, they are the scenarios in which the school won't even accept an application. This is not the case you are in, they have accepted your application.

If your daughter's name was simply drawn out of the hat, then you have a very different situation. You need clarity on this.

If they won't tell you why, email them and say you are launching a section 29 appeal with the department.

Flinty997

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LBUR02

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119967318#Comment_119967318

The schools havent specifically told me in writing - the secretary of the girls school did ask my girls date of birth and said oh shes probably on the waiting due to that - but she is not involved in the process but raised my suspicians! Boys in my daughters class born after January 1 also didnt get places in the mixed school so there has to be something to the age thing. My daughters application has not being excluded but she has been placed on the waiting list. All my daughters class got an offer of a place accept my daughter who is the youngest in the class which is strange. Now this could be down to bad look but other parents Ive spoke to seem to think its due to her age. Im so confused by the whole thing. I have not raised the age issue yet in my appeal to the school- I am basing the appeal on the grounds of the school she attended ( which is a feeder school), all the other girls in her class getting an offer and living so close to the school.

csirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119966817#Comment_119966817

This is interesting info.

So it looks like they gave places to sister of pupils and then were oversubscribed re feeder schools.

There process says that for over subscription, all the applicants go into a draw.

Some points:

1. Date of birth is not a criteria for the draw- its purely by lucky dip. If your daughter was excluded due to dob, then the draw is invalid.

2. Based on the number of children in local schools, is it credible that they were more than 100 oversubscribed? This equates to c.4 full classes of kids being excluded!

3. No child outside the area can be accepted ahead of your daughter - is this really the case?

There's a good chance this is all an admin mistake e.g. child wrongly catergorised. Talking to school and appealling might uncover this.

LBUR02

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119967472#Comment_119967472

Its such a frustrating situation and getting to speak to anybody is impossible. The admission policy does not detail what the process is for anyone who is left on the waiting list. I have also been told locally that Ukranian children have been given places which is fair enough but this leaves other children missing out and no provision being made for this. In your childs situation were you informed in writing after the 2nd round offers of not getting a place? Did you appeal to the school and did you receive a reply?

My girls is a real worrier and the lack of any communication from the schools is adding to the anxiety.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119967520#Comment_119967520

Well, best of luck with it, must be very stressful.

LBUR02

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119967566#Comment_119967566

It very well could be a mistake but I cant get to talk to anyone other than the school secretaries!

garyscargo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119966817#Comment_119966817

Looking at these selection criteria, OP, there is no mention of the child's age as being a factor at all. So your daughter should have been offered a place under category 2 regardless of age (category 3 only comes into play if there are still available places after all siblings of (past) pupils and the feeder schools have been accommodated). The only way she mightn't have been offered a place under category 2 is if there was oversubscription in category 2, in which case the "randomly pulled from a container" scenario comes into play and her name didn't come out to get a random place. Again, her age should have no bearing on this as there is no mention of it.

Incidentally, there are 11-year-old secondary students in the country; not many, quite honestly, but they do exist. Here's the proof from the CSO (look at the 11 year old enrollments in secondary schools):

https://data.cso.ie/table/ED124

So, the "Department regulation" thing about turning 12 before 1st January thing is very odd. Either the regulation doesn't actually exist or it is being misinterpreted (the 1st of January during the first academic year in the school is, by any literate reading of it, January 2024 for a September 2023 start; whoever is saying it is January 2023 is wrong, frankly). The law, as it stands, requires written admission policies to be applied in fine detail to avoid discrimination. So boys cannot be given unofficial preference by the school, however well intentioned. That's illegal.

I would go with raw facts OP. 11 year olds are admitted to secondary schools. Fact (CSO data). There is therefore no Department regulation that prohibits this. The admissions policy must (by law) be followed exactly as stated and, as stated, your daughter should be offered a category 2 place as she is from a feeder school and will be 12 before the 1st January that falls during her first academic year in the school. If they made a genuine error in applying their own admissions policy (which looks like it, frankly) then that error cannot disadvantage your child and she should be offered a place. If they try to brazen it out, quite honestly, you will have to tell them that you will have no choice but to approach your solicitor.

gipi

I recall a Department regulation re age which applied many years ago (when I was in school).

In order to sit the Inter Cert (as it was then), a child had to be 14 by Jan 1st of the year of the exam - which equates to the "12 years by Jan 1st in the first academic year" mentioned above.

The reason this stuck with me was there was a person in my class who was not allowed to sit his Inter Cert because he wasn't 14 on 1st Jan of the year we sat the exam. He missed the date by a couple of weeks. The school appealed on his behalf but got nowhere.

I wonder if this rule still exists and this is the one the school is referring to (albeit they seem to be interpreting it incorrectly)

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119967575#Comment_119967575

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cruizer101

How many feeder schools are there, and approx how many students in 6th class in them?

How many places are in the school?

Seems strange that the siblings and feeder school criteria could oversubscribe the amount of places they have but that is in effect what they are saying.

You might need to go down to the school rather than just call, try sit outside headmaster office til you get chance to talk to them, may not be possible with work.

LBUR02

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119967756#Comment_119967756

Ive just checked - there is 14 schools mentioned on the feeder list for the girls school. Its hard to determine the amount of girls though there is in 6th class in each school. Some of the schools may also have a few 6th classes and some are all girls schools. There is 150 places available in the school.

garyscargo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119967806#Comment_119967806

Remember that only category 1 applications (i.e. siblings of (past) pupils) would outrank your daughter, anyway. It doesn't matter how big the pool is for category 2 - she should have the same "random out of the container" chance as any other category 2 applicant irrespective of age. That she is apparently placed over 100 (??) on the waiting list indicates that there is something very wrong here IMO. I can't believe that 250+ ranked before her. Ask when the random draw from the container for category 2 oversubscription was held, precisely, and ask who exactly oversaw the process as per the stated admissions policy (get names for the parents' association member and the Garda). These details should be transparent and forthcoming, or there is something fishy going on IMO (incompetence, or shenanigans, or both).

Also, OP, there is no point appealing to reason in terms of all your daughter's friends getting a place, or living close by, etc. as these also can't be taken into account unless stated in the admission policy. IMO you have to simply keep pressing (calmly but assertively) that they must (by law) follow their stated admissions policy or, if necessary, you will have the courts force them to do so.

shesty

I think first off you need to find for certain is she on the waiting list (and if so, why), or has she missed out because of a "lucky dip" scenario.

And why you have recieved no official communication from them regarding her application.

If you could get that information, you could decide what route to take then.Not sure about heading off into appeals until you're sure there is something to appeal. You don't seem to have anything official as yet?

garyscargo

You are entitled to written detail if admission is refused, OP. Section 62(7)(k) of the Education (Admission to Schools) Act 2018 states:

"provide that where a student has not been offered admission, the reasons that he or she was not offered admission shall be provided in writing to the applicant including, where applicable, details of the student’s ranking against the selection criteria and details of the student’s place on the waiting list"

As another poster said, you need to get official confirmation of where the application is at in detail. The seeming reluctance to communicate with you (return phonecalls, or provide anything in writing, etc.) suggests to me that there is something wrong here, frankly.

FishOnABike

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119966817#Comment_119966817

Based on this if even one person in category 3 or 4 has been offered a place the school has not applied it's selection criteria correctly.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119967603#Comment_119967603

I think getting the reason in writing is vital. It's difficult to appeal if you don't know the grounds for the decision you are appealing.

Once you have the reason in writing it sets the scope for any appeal and helps avoid wasting time and effort on irelevant details.

LBUR02

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119969074#Comment_119969074

I have received official communication from the school that she did not receive an offer of a place in the first round. This was a generic letter stating the school was oversubscribed and she was entered in their lottery system but was unsuccessful. Thats all the detail given. Her place on the waiting list was handwritten into the generic letter. We then had to email the school to say we wished for our daughter to remain on the waiting list - which we did.

The process as I understand it is:

• that some kids will refuse places which moves my child up the waiting list
• other kids will not want to stay on the waiting list as they have an offer for another school which again moves my child up the waiting list
• The deadline for accepting a place was monday of last week.
• 2nd round offers were then made to kids on the waiting list.
• I have heard nothing from the school since - no email, phone call or letter
• I have contacted the schools by phone several times and by calling to the schools but cant get anyone to confirm what position she is on the waiting list now or if 2nd round offers are finished. I would have thought that this information should be available to me and the generic letter does state that I can contact the school to discuss her place on the waiting list but it seems noone wants to talk to me. The secretary ( who is a lovely person) of the girls school did say that she thinks my daughter had moved 40 places but could not be sure as she is not involved in the process. Secretary also mentioned that my child was probably on the waiting list due to her age.
• I did appeal the decision to the school ( as advised by my childs primary school) but I havent received a response as of yet

I had a phonecall yesterday with local TD and explained our situation. He said he is aware that there is a problem. There is always issues every year but this year seems to be worse than normal. He said he has never seen an appeal to the school be successful - Im likely to receive another generic letter stating that their enrolment and oversubscription process been carried out fairly. Likewise with appeal to Dept of Education which can be made after I receive correspondance from school. He said it is very likely that I wont receive any closure to this problem until next summer. There has been years when extra places are made available but this is not a given. He is going to contact school on my behalf to see where she is on the waiting list and confirm that my appeal had been received. He said it is impossible to prove that the correct process wasnt followed. Its very hard to prove that this has anything to do with her age either.

I have never been so stressed - Im not sleeping and this problem is occupying all my thoughts. My daughter is so upset - the girls in her class are all excited about secondary school but my daughter cant join in this excitement. She is very anxious that she will have to go to a school where she knows nobody. Also her class has begun to discuss entrance exams and as of now she has no school to do an entrance exam in. We have had alot of tears in our house over the last week as she was sure she would receive an offer in the 2nd round - given her low position on the waiting list I was less hopeful. Ive told her now that we probably will not receive any further news until after christmas in the hope that she will relax.

Anyway it seems there is nothing more I can do at this stage and Im not going to have any update soon. Its just so hard that we are alone in this ( I know waiting list number suggests we are not alone but we dont know anyone thats in the same position), If she had at least one other girl in her class that was in the same position it would be easier.

csirl

The whole philosophy underpinning the recent admissions policy changes is that kids should go to a school in their own locality.

14 feeder schools is excessive. Surely a good number of these are not in the schools immediate locality? Normally anything more than 4 or 5 with strong local connections i.e. most students going to the secondary, would be excessive.

Sounds like someone added schools from other localities to the admission list so as to make the feeder schools list and priority for local kids meaningless. Consider adding to your appeal that the admission policy is contrary to public policy via the arbitrary addition of eccessive number of schools to the feeder school list to the detriment of genuinely local schools.

shesty

Ok, so you have done all you can for now it appears.Maybe go at it again in January.

I'm not downplaying the stress of it, I just wasn't quite clear from your posts whether you had received official communication that they had no place for her, or you were just basing it on what the secretary said might be a reason.I'd still be wary of taking the "it's probably because of her age" remark as being factual.But on all other fronts, yes I would have thought there should be communication.And I also read the policy to mean that she is eligible by age.

LBUR02

Original poster back here for an update for anyone interested.

The good news is that my daughter got a place in the girls school opposite our house. She is over the moon. We are over the moon - everyone is delighted.

I basically from January became a pain in the ass to the school. I queried everything.

1. I asked to see recording of the 'raffle' of places and see my daughters name come out - was told by school that they didnt record it. You would think in 2023 they would record this if legit!
2. I asked for name of gardai that supervised the 'raffle' of places - was eventually given a name. I made several attempts to get in touch with this garda to confirm he did attend but got nowhere. He does apparently work in the local garda station but never returned my calls, was never on duty when I called in etc. The garda station couldnt confirm whether he attended or not.
3. I enquired around other groups of parents for anyone in the same position as me to get in touch. Most of the parents who contacted me had children similar to my daughters age ie. in the younger end of applications. It does seem that kids not turning 12 until January or later are put to bottom of list - could be just bad look but have to say looks very odd. These kids do meet the criteria on the enrolment policy so why are so much of the younger kids on waiting lists. I queried this with school but never received a reply.
4. I found out that a girl related to school vice principle received a place in 1st round. This girl lives way outside catchment area and should not have been eligible for a place based on enrolment policy. I raised this with school. AND THEN A FEW DAYS LATER I received a call from the school offering my daughter a place. They apologised that upon reviewing their processes they realised that my daughter should have received an offer. They recorded our eircode wrong on their system apparently🤔, Umm Im puzzled how this happened as the eircode was correctly entered by myself on google sheets and Im sure this feeds into their own system. Umm indeed. They have very nice and accomadating since.

Anyway we are beyond delighted that we're sorted. It was an awful worry. Do I have any faith that schools are operating fair and transparent enrolment procedures - nope I dont have any belief its fair at all. My advice to any parent in this same position is to become a very annoying person and question absolutely everything.

Thank you for all your replies and advice when I posted my problem originally.🙏🙏

Senature

Glad for you and your daughter that it all worked out. All along the school communication and explanations sounded iffy at best but at least you have the place now.

FoxForce5

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120500496#Comment_120500496

The squeaky wheel gets the grease, well done OP.