Who has Priority here? Almost Fatal Accident

Gabezmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984020#Comment_119984020

I'll try to explain it in simpler words perhaps: You seem to feel the need to defend motorists in your threads above, right?

Brendan Bendar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984047#Comment_119984047

Not right, I’m afraid, not feeling the need to “defend” any party, just interested in the truth, that’s all.

When I approach from behind a cyclist with the attention of turning left, I firstly apply indicator, slow right down, then raise my left hand to acknowledge to cyclist I’m aware of them and let them continue their path. That usually doesn’t take too much effort, and I often get a thank you wave in return.

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119983863#Comment_119983863

Why on earth would I let someone else through when I have right of way?

Its the complete lack of common sense in these "arguments" that is actually just plain dangerous for cyclists.

"sure dont worry about rules of the road or right of way, the eejits in the cars will stop because..."reasons""

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984036#Comment_119984036

Have you looked at the video and would you have done the same? Would you have done the same if it was a jogger going past a driveway with headphones in? Would you have done it if it was a car crawling along in the hard shoulder?

Just to be clear, I am not saying the cyclist was in the right, I am just saying that the motorist, in this video, was in the wrong. It's not an either/or thing, they can both be at fault.

From a cyclists perspective:

The path did not end (it used to be clearly demarcated, and after some road works it has no signage at all).

The motorist approaching has seen you, is coming from behind and is slowing.

Only 2 seconds before is it clear they are not slowing to allow you to continue on what was once a continuous cycle path and now is just something with no markings.

In this time they managed to stop but judging by the driving if you were a few metres closer, they wouldn't have stopped but that is unclear. Hopefully the cyclist would have also stopped as they looked behind even if they were closer.

From the motorists perspective:

There is a bike lane beside me with a cyclist, that I should have seen 300m before hand.

It is clear we will arrive at the turn I am taking, at almost the same time.

I kept going, hopefully because I was simply not paying attention rather than some bizarre notion that my right of way trump's all.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119983968#Comment_119983968

Watch the video, barrelling is not what he done, a slow jog is the pace at best. Also stopped with a very short warning so despite my view he should have seen it coming, he was alert.

And here is the honest truth from the motorist, I was faster, I knew I'd get around before him so I went for it. It's a cold morning (frost on windows) and I'm running late (frost on windows, with patches defrosted). I'm not sure I even noticed the cyclist and even if I did, I didn't actually think about it at all. Nothing to do with right of way or anything else. It wasn't vicious, it wasn't intentional, it just didn't occur to me.

Something years of driving in multiple countries has taught me, don't attribute malice to something that can be attributed to either being self absorbed, tiredness or stupidity.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119974653#Comment_119974653

For the sake of his own safety, and that of other road users I think the OP needs to improve his knowledge of the rules of the road and show a little regard to other road users himself before immediately looking to blaming them when something like this happens.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119975406#Comment_119975406

The OP sounds like an inexperienced cyclist.

He didn't know what the keep right sign meant, he misunderstood what the broken yellow lines at the side of the road were for, and he didn't know he had to stop at the end of the path. Furthermore he says here he saw a car coming, but didn't slow down, and not five minutes before this happened he says he had another close call with a taxi driver. Coincidence or inexperience? Sounds like an accident waiting to happen.

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984141#Comment_119984141

again with the emotive nonsense

The driver "went for it"

The driver had it. They had right of way. Its simple, its black and white. The person with right of way has right of way, the person without it, doesn't.

The cyclist was either stupid, not paying attention or just arrogant, the driver was just legally going about their business, obeying the ROTR and processing with ROW. Anything else you add is just hand-waving and whataboutery to try to blame the motorist and excuse the cyclist.

Wildly Boaring

Why on earth would I let someone else through when I have right of way?

To be nice.

Bit of give and take makes the world go around.

To stop and start a bike is a nice little effort. To slow car a bit and leave a fellow human through is pretty easy.

Cyclist in the wrong. Car driver bit selfish but right.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984134#Comment_119984134

Again, not what I said. But I am glad to see that you can admit that you think perceived right of way trump's avoiding an incident when on an internet forum.

Do I think you drive like that in real life, of course not. You said you drive in Dublin. You and I both know that ploughing on with 'right of way' at all times in Dublin would have you sending this message at a minimum with the removal of your driving license. I'd have filled up Vincent's ICU or Shankill cemetery if I carried on in all scenarios I had right of way. Some drivers will, the most common cause of fender benders on the N11 on my way home. Most of us won't because we put not being in an accident above being right.

And again, you keep flicking between common sense and right of way. Road signage actually dictates the car did not have right of way (broken yellow line), but common sense would have most of us air on the side of caution. Which one is it?

micar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984126#Comment_119984126

While I would stay behind the cyclist and not pass them out.

This creates no confusion between the cyclist and the motorist.....that's the actual issue here

1) motorists thinks they've right of way and expects the cyclist to stop

2) cyclist thinks they've right of way and expects the motoists not to turn left as its not safe to do so

Regardless of who's right and wrong from a legal perspective, the onus here is with the motorists to ensure the safety of a vulnerable road user.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984163#Comment_119984163

I hate to tell you but you'd fail your driving test if you think you have right of way across an edge of carriageway broken yellow line and that you gained right of way with less than 3 seconds of passing someone. An indicator does not grant you right of way. Has the test changed in some way since I done it.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984163#Comment_119984163

Also again with the provocation, I'm not letting the cyclist off, they are both at fault. Stop misrepresenting what I have said multiple times

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984149#Comment_119984149

The keep right sign applies to the lane to the right of the sign. The broken yellow line means the edge of the carriageway. I think it's more than just the cyclist who doesn't know what these signs mean or represent.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984169#Comment_119984169

Its nice to be nice, as long as there is no risk of you delaying other traffic behind you or being rear ended yourself by stopping unexpectedly.

Kaisr Sose

Simple matter here.

Motorist is in the wrong.

They should have seen the cyclist and assumed they were going straight ahead, then wait to confirm that. It has been said before, indicating does not give or infer right of way.

What was 2 seconds for the motorist to wait before turning left. Its likely they never even seen the cyclist.

Dreadful driving. It's actually quite shocking the number of posters that think the driver did nothing wrong. One can only assume some of them would do the same thing. Cyclists have no right of way in their version of the rules of the road.

Wildly Boaring

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984209#Comment_119984209

No stop necessary just drive a bit better. Slow in time and give some space.

Brendan Bendar

Hmm.. thread drifting off topic, we have folk now masquerading as mind readers who purport to know what the motorist and the cyclist were thinking

Most sensible people would see that as , well, let’s be diplomatic, off the wall a bit.

Always puzzles me that people will try to defend the indefensible instead of holding their hands up, admitting their error and moving on.

I suppose that’s why threads like this stagger on for twenty or thirty pages.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984244#Comment_119984244

Which could equally be applied to the cyclist here.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984244#Comment_119984244

Yes, it’s a matter of keeping an eye for cyclists to the left as you approach a left turn and simply pacing your speed to avoid conflict and to allow the cyclist to safely carry forward.

What does sometimes disturb me, though, when I’m stopped at lights, especially when a number of cyclists build up to the left of you, one often cuts right across the front of you very closely (to position for right turn), maybe just as the light is turning green again. I’ve had to stamp on the brake a few times on these occasions just after beginning to move forward.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984036#Comment_119984036

If you had already watched the video, you’d know it was taken by the cyclist, using a helmet camera- so why would you question why the cyclist doesn’t appear in the video or the screenshot from the video?

Wildly Boaring

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984301#Comment_119984301

Yep.

Per above I would put the cyclist in the wrong.

But if I were driving the car I'd let him across first and slow accordingly. To be nice

Gabezmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984071#Comment_119984071

It's not a matter of truth (subjective or objective) - it's a matter of human behaviour. Motorists have a set of fossilised mindsets and behaviours that become activated once they get behind the wheel of a car and start driving (I am a driver myself - plus, I am a cyclist and PEV user so I get both perspectives).

I'll gladly explain to you what those car/van/truck/bus-driver behaviours are, even from a Freudian, Lacanian, Jungian perspective if you like ("the car being an extension of..." etc. etc.)

Mrs Dempsey

Getting messy here - more heat than light being generated. Some of it a bit scary - e.g. "I have the right of way so I'm in the right" brigade. Was in Lidl earlier - with 3 items - kind lady with full trolley allows me to check out ahead of her - was she wrong? Should she have driven the trolley over me? Binary opinion devoid of shades of grey please & thanks in keeping with pantomime season - oh no she didn't - oh yes she did. Happy Christmas folks stay safe out there & watch out for others.

Brendan Bendar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984412#Comment_119984412

And that post makes no sense whatsoever, has nothing to do with what happens on the road.

Making the discussion even more messy.

still hasn’t changed anything, cyclist should not have gone off the cycle track and straight onto the road.

Seems obvious to me, but not, it seems, to those mind readers on here.

How difficult is it to stop and check.

Brendan Bendar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984391#Comment_119984391

NOw there’s a generalisation for you…

magicbastarder

you seem to be struggling with the concept that it's possible that both the cyclist and the driver made mistakes. saying the cyclist made a mistake does not mean the driver was in the right, and vice versa.

and as i've pointed out a few times, it was the cyclist who stopped in time to avoid a collision, but the motorist did not.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984577#Comment_119984577

Is it obvious to you that the driver shouldn’t have cut across the path of the cyclist that they overtook one second earlier?

KrisW1001

I don't think we're going to get much more than driver or cyclist bashing at this stage.

Perhaps we could let this be, now? The o.p. asked a question of fact, it was answered to their satisfaction. Everything we've learned since shouldn't be news: that the world is not perfect, we should be more careful and more courteous, but people can still make mistakes.

Brendan Bendar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984630#Comment_119984630

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984592#Comment_119984592

Yes good call there , the cyclist did not obey the ‘move right’ sign on the cycle path it would appear,and mistakenly thought the ‘roadway ‘ was part of the cycle way and just carried on.

Motorist probably expected the cyclist to stop just as one might do when attempting to cross a busy road.

Now nobody got hurt and hopefully the cyclist learned a few lessons and will survive many more years of happy and safe cycling.

chooseusername

Can I overtake a vehicle on the inside?

"A cyclist can overtake a vehicle on the left (or inside of the flow of traffic) if the vehicles to the right are stationary or moving more slowly than the cyclist.

However as a cyclist you cannot overtake on the inside if the vehicle you intend to overtake:

Is signalling an intention to turn to the left and will move to the left before you overtake it"

At 20 seconds in in the video, the car had fully overtaken the cyclist just before the cyclist reached the blue sign, giving the cyclist enough time to stop.

The car driver expected the cyclist to stop and wait at the junction until their path was clear, which they eventually did, comfortably it appears. The cyclist believed they had beaten the car to junction, and so had the road. But the red car won the race and the cyclist left it till the last minute to pull up and so got their "almost fatal accident" footage.

Regardless of who had the right of way here, the most responsibility lay with the car driver, as the party that could inflict the most damage.

Neither covered themselves in glory here.

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984174#Comment_119984174

The motorist could have stopped, the cyclist should have stopped. Hopefully that clears up any remaining questions.

The broken yellow line doesn't come into it, the ending of the bike lane does. If the bike line had continued across the junction then the motorist would be 100% at fault, but it didnt.

So, to answer the OP, the motorist had priority.

magicbastarder

That 'overtaking slow moving traffic on the left' legislation does not apply in this case. It's for when a cyclist approaches a slower car from behind, where the driver is already indicating left. The car in this instance was behind the cyclist till the last second or two. It's not the context that law is for.

If you *did* try to apply it in the case of a motorist overtaking a cyclist and then braking to turn left, you'd be arguing for the legalisation of left hooks.

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984592#Comment_119984592

Yes, thankfully the person who was in the wrong stopped before it might have killed them.

Sleepy Joseph

lad on bike 100% at fault.

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984614#Comment_119984614

You cant cut across something that isn't there. The "path" wasn't there, it stopped due to a road.

Had the cyclist been on the road the entire time then the motorist would 100% be at fault (hence why many would invite the cyclist the be on the road when such crappy cycle lanes are involved)

However, this is not the case in this (near) incident.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984689#Comment_119984689

Don’t remember reading the section of Rules of the Road about the winner of the race having right of way.

Maybe we shouldn’t be thinking about normal road usage in terms of race winning?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984735#Comment_119984735

The cyclist was there, though there’s a good chance that the driver never actually saw the cyclist, given the obscured side windows. His path was his route, the direction he was going.

Brendan Bendar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984735#Comment_119984735

Correct and right, and that’s ignoring the turn right sign on the cycle path by the cyclist it would appear.

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984781#Comment_119984781

His path, both literally and figuratively ended at the roadway though.

In this specific scenario, the cyclist was the equivalent of a pedestrian waiting to cross the road. It would be no different if the cyclist was attempting to cross the actual roadway that they were previously cycling parallel to.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984773#Comment_119984773

Had the cyclist reached the the junction a minute before the the car, there would be no discussion, and Vice Versa.

So it is about who reached the junction first, the car obviously did, and had overtaken the cyclist despite the cyclist's best efforts.

Even as a pedestrian walking around Dublin CC, I have moments of "Yeah, he's not stopping / slowing / indicating" so I stop. The OP said they saw them in their mirror and chose to not slow down. Not something I'd roll the dice on.

Vestiapx

I don't cycle on roads because it's too dangerous. I do a bit of mountain biking and like the downhills but that's beside the point.

I pride myself as a good driver and so I would feel that the cyclist is on a separate but equal lane similar to a bus lane and is a road user and therefore I would cede priority to them at this junction.

Anyone that disagrees is probably a bad driver but definitely an inconsiderate road user.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119975407#Comment_119975407

May not have seen you? Windows on that side looked frosted/fogged?

gameoverdude

Tonne+ of metal. Your eulogy at the funeral can be "I had the right of way".

Doesn't matter. Just let them go and capture their reg on your camera. Either attached to your handle bars, shoulder or helmet. Report them afterwards.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984871#Comment_119984871

If you had any experience reporting such matters to the Gardai you would know that it is largely a futile experience.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984832#Comment_119984832

Must try that the next time I'm on the M50, once I 'win the race' and put on my indicator, I can cut from the outside line across three lanes to the slip road, and there'll be no discussion about my dangerous driving

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984817#Comment_119984817

Except that pedestrians are slow. If the driver had passed a jogger, jogging towards the junction one second earlier, do you think the driver should have checked to see what the jogger was up to?

Brendan Bendar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984832#Comment_119984832

Not correct, the cyclist should obeyed the sign in the middle of the path, presumably stopping, checking before proceeding to rejoin the cycle way on the other side.

Then there would be no conflict with the vehicular traffic on the road.

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984888#Comment_119984888

I imagine so. I have tried.

And if we murdered them, somehow we'd be in the wrong. Go figure.

I'm a casual cyclist, so wouldn't be mad confident. If in doubt, I stop. But I'm experienced enough not to give them an inch as in where my pedals are not nearly hitting the curb if I kept to the left.

No point proving you're right if ends up you being under an suv.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984897#Comment_119984897

OK Smart-ass stuff aside Andrew, as the cyclist, what would you have done at this stage, assuming you were aware of the car to your right, overtaking you with it's left indicator flashing?

cyc.jpg