Cost of a United Ireland and the GFA

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120229073#Comment_120229073

It was a bigoted sectarian statelet which systemically discriminated against Catholics and Nationalists in education housing and cultural rights. Read the first leader of Gosling's party please.

'Not perfect'? Just wow.

jh79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120229121#Comment_120229121

How would you describe it in its current state and who is responsible for that?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120229164#Comment_120229164

25 years ago there was a reset in the GFA.

Unionism has been responsible for continually blocking what was agreed in it and it's ancillary agreements. Now they are holding the people of the north to ransom in an attempt to restore their veto or because they still will not have a Taig about the place.

But blocked gullies in 'London'Derry.

jh79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120229197#Comment_120229197

To be fair i think the point of the blocked gullies is meant to represent how SF members would rather see people suffer in NI rather than making their lives better just out of bigotry. Can't blame the DUP for everything. SF have been useless in Stormont. If that is on purpose rather than incompetence, well it is a bit short sighted given their aim of a UI and attitudes to a UI in Ireland.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120229197#Comment_120229197

So it is always the unionists fault it is "a failed statelet", even when it was the Republicans who were trying their best to make it a failed statelet by bombing - countless times - economic targets and kidnapping and murdering industrialists?

You cannot have it both ways. 

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120229224#Comment_120229224

Is it any different to how some people would view the actions of FF/FG/Greens or the Tories etc?

As Francis didn't answer I'll ask you, say SF didn't exist, how do you think a UI campaigner would get on with the DUP?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120229235#Comment_120229235

There was a war/conflict which saw all sides killing, bombing and maiming. Heck they even bombed towns and cities here. Did you somehow miss that? What effect did it have on the statelet?

It destroyed the failed entity to the extent it required an international agreement to try and fix and normalise it.

jh79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120229240#Comment_120229240

Some would argue that the FF softly softly approach to a UI is probably more likely to succeed. SF are struggling to convince their own supporters. You know though I think its success is more about the economic side and that there is no hope unless the NI economy is improved.

If SF didn't exist maybe the DUP wouldn't either. I don't really know my TUV from my PUP but i think NI would be a better place without both SF and the DUP. Not much difference between them in my eyes.

As someone who doesn't want to pay for a UI, well having them two as the most popular parties does have its advantages!

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120229294#Comment_120229294

And yet another who avoids the question.

We are way off topic here so I'll leave it at that.

jh79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120229308#Comment_120229308

To be fair i thought it was a rhetorical question. DUP have zero interest in anything UI. But SF have to realise their role in driving voters in their direction with some of their more distasteful actions. I still can't decide if the DUP are clever or lucky. Before the protocol, a UI was a real possibility, with the protocol, not a chance. Are the DUP exploiting SF reflex just to be the opposite?

SF are a successful party in both countries but it has not translated across to the constitutional question and that is on them alone.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120229308#Comment_120229308

I answered your question, post 408. I wrote "The irish unity campaigner has got his case heard and publicised in the Belfast Telegraph. If there was a possibility of a victory for the UI side in a Referendum, then I am sure there would be a referendum again. It would only be divisive if there was a referendum now, as all polls show there is not the support there for a UI victory." I think generally Unionists are willing to listen and get on well with constitutional nationalists / those who never were terrorists or condoned terrorism.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120229294#Comment_120229294

Great post.

"If SF didn't exist maybe the DUP wouldn't either.". Very good point. I agree with you that NI would be a better place without both SF and the DUP.

As someone who also doesn't want to pay for a UI, well having them two as the most popular parties does have its advantages!

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120229329#Comment_120229329

but it has not translated across to the constitutional question and that is on them alone.

I'm more than relaxed about that.

There will be, like Scotland, little shift in polling until there is something to vote for. And as we seen in Scotland it went to parity from 32% for indepenence. They only lost because the Tories promised stuff they didn't deliver. I don't think they will be promising anything come a Border Poll.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120229288#Comment_120229288

During thre troubles one side consistently done more bombing, attacking of "economic targets" as it called them and indulged in the kidnapping and murder of industrialists. What side done that do you think and do you not thing it was a bit rich of them of compain about the failed statelet when ot was them contributing most to the statelet being failed, through the sustained bombing of economic targets, murder of industrialists etc?

jh79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120229382#Comment_120229382

Scottish independence doesn't have the same issues as NI. Their economy is far better for a start and sectarianism isn't as big a problem. Also they only have to convince themselves, NI has to convince Ireland too.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120229414#Comment_120229414

Open a new thread if you want to discuss the IRA.

The statelet had already failed BTW the conflict/war that involved all sides came from that failure and destroyed it. This we all know. I think John Hume would have laughed derisively at your 'not perfect' statement.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120229447#Comment_120229447

I didn't say any of that.

I merely showed what happened when a plan was produced. I contend that polling won't change here until similar happens.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120229235#Comment_120229235

Of course it was the Unionists' fault.

They spent literally ****ing decades trying to alienate, disenfranchise, marginalise, impoverish, and ethnically cleanse the Catholic and Nationalist minorities from Communities across the 6 Counties.

Its no accident that the Troubles were an escalation of protests that only sought equality and basic civil rights. When those protests happened, a cross section of powerful Unionism/Loyalism pushed back with massive civil disobedience and economic blackmail.

I don't agree with physical force republican violence, a lot of it straight up murder, but I can see why it got to that point and complicit blame must go to the Governments of the day in London and Dublin, who let the whole thing escalate again and again on their watch, while the Unionist tail wagged the Government dog.

So yes Francis, for the record, both the failed State status of the six Counties and the violence which punctuated it for 30 years, are ALWAYS the Unionists' fault.

jh79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120229464#Comment_120229464

Why would you expect the same thing to happen to the same extent when there are significant differences in the circumstances?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120229489#Comment_120229489

Because I believe a UI will be an attractive proposition and will convince an adequate number of the middle ground

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120229468#Comment_120229468

So all the "ethnic cleansing" as you call it, and as you see it, was just on one side so? So how come the Catholic and Nationalist population increased rather than decreased? Oh, its always "them 'uns fault".

jh79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120229504#Comment_120229504

Think we both know where we stand on that one!

On a bit of a tangent , would Bertie be a problem for you in a SF/FF coalition?

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120229505#Comment_120229505

Cos they were good Catholics and rode like rabbits without contraception, despite their diminishing capacity to afford children.

No question that became another drain on the welfare State in the 6, especially when the Loyalists had them blacklisted from any kind of decent employment.

So yes, it was them 'uns fault. Every single day. They even clung on to plural voting for decades after the rest of the western world moved way on!

The social history of the six Counties, from 1945 on is not up for debate. It was living, breathing apartheid.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120229536#Comment_120229536

Any coalition is a necessary compromise so I'd have to see the programme for government before I would comment. I wouldn't be happy with many FFers TBH.

jh79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120229570#Comment_120229570

He's a bit of a special case though.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120229619#Comment_120229619

Not really when you remember Haughey, Lawlor etc. Michael Martin rowed alongside him as they took the country over the edge too.

jh79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120229713#Comment_120229713

It's a shame though that all of the major parties will ignore it.

Larbre34

Why are you asking will Bertie be a problem?

He isn't going to be a TD for the purposes of making up a coalition of numbers, so who cares if he's a member of the Doolin Duckshoot club, never mind FF?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120229773#Comment_120229773

Politics is an imperfect art.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120228865#Comment_120228865

I have to agree with you on the point about Sinn Fein.

A consistent point made on here is that republicanism and nationalism do not belong to any single party. Many of the republican-leaning posters have said quite clearly that they are republicans first and are not necessarily Sinn Fein supporters. I am therefore genuninely surprised that there hasn't been a more open conversation on this issue. If taking Sinn Fein off the pitch was the price of a united Ireland, would people be prepared to pay it?

blanch152

https://sluggerotoole.com/2023/02/11/in-this-still-deeply-divided-country-should-we-be-talking-about-confederation/

Every time I bring up the topic of confederation as a potential solution to a united Ireland, it is shot down in flames by the usual suspects, with little or no pushback on the central arguments. It is interesting therefore to see a number of real world discussions taking place on it, gathered together here in one coherent piece. The core argument for a confederal island is set out really well in this paragraph:

"The realists will look at Northern Ireland and wonder at its unreconciled societal divisions, stubbornly resistant to change; its often unworkable political institutions; its ever-present risk of a recurrence of sectarian violence; its economic under-development and its financial dependence on subsidies from London. And they will wonder if a now peaceful, prosperous and successful independent state of Ireland (albeit with significant housing and health system problems) needs to graft this unhealthy northern limb onto a largely healthy southern body politic. Wouldn’t keeping it at arm’s length, while satisfying the age-old nationalist aspiration for some kind of unity through a confederal solution (with the British government largely, although not completely, out of the picture) be enough to be going on with?"

It also neatly summarises the likely response from the diehards:

"I know none of this complexity will be attractive to the people I call “romantic territorial nationalists”: those in Sinn Fein, Fianna Fail, the Northern nationalist community and the general public in the South whose hundred-year-old demand for reunification is based on the desire to get the ‘fourth green field’ back (these people appear to have forgotten John Hume’s message that “the real division of Ireland is not a line on a map but in the minds and hearts of its people”). However, I hope there are large numbers of realists out there who understand that unity on this basis – with hundreds of thousands of angry, alienated unionists as part of our ‘new Ireland’ – simply won’t work."

The term "romantic territorial nationalists" is a new one to me, but I think "romantic" is too benign of a description for them.