Cost of a United Ireland and the GFA

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120280351#Comment_120280351

Is there anyone here who doesn't reconisgse that there hundreds of other identities here in Ireland . We have freedom of expression here and will in UI too so identity is not an issue. All the new Ireland Jurisdiction will do is have jurisdiction over all of Ireland. NI jurisdiction is broken. Governments constantly collapsing. If I was there I would certainly see a UI as an option to change for the better.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120280810#Comment_120280810

There will be a lot in the north listening very carefully to what the British government says or more importantly, doesn't say. The British establishment swamped Scotland when it looked like the Yes side were ahead with pleadings and promises.

I don't see it happening in a BP situation tbh and that will swing a lot of voters.

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120280070#Comment_120280070

Could you be more specific about what in a UI will work. Jurisdictions change all the time. A few years ago Belfast was part of the EU, now it isn't. You lived through that change in jurisdiction. Look how the south operates today, once it was part of the UK. What is NI would make up 25% of a UI compared with 2.5% of the UK which means you will have more say and not deal with a collapsed devolved government. would that not be better? One of the reasons conservatives went for the hard brexit and NIP because 2.5% was a small price to pay for English nationalists leaving the EU. The UK is not united and brexit has highlighted that. A UI would be more united than today's UK

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120280853#Comment_120280853

Only two identities are recognised in the GFA. Identity is an issue, head in the sand stuff to pretend otherwise.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120280546#Comment_120280546

Read my post again.

"There is an economic price to be paid for the activities of MAINLY the PIRA"

I hold to the opinion that the PIRA are primarily responsible for the economic mess that Northern Ireland is in today.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120281316#Comment_120281316

But if there is a border poll, the identities in the GFA become redundant, but the reality of a pluralist Ireland where diverse identity is celebrated and a more open attitude to diversity is accepted as a good thing, I would think a UI is safer place for most citizens.

But bigots take a lot of persuasion to believe them'uns are OK and life can be better in an open society.

Ireland took until the 1990s to get that message.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120281365#Comment_120281365

There are only three identities native to the island, Irish, British and Traveller. Any new constitution should recognise this.

You are right though about the bigots, they will take an awful lot of persuasion to accept that.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120281414#Comment_120281414

Well, there are quite a few others in common parlance, and not just pejorative ones. It is quite obvious the Ireland has changed in the last 25 years - coincidentally since the GFA.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120281440#Comment_120281440

The three identities I mention are the ones with historical roots in the country going back centuries and are deserving of special mention in the Constitution.

As I said, the bigots will take persuading of that.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120281440#Comment_120281440

Yes, there are almost 300,000 British people living happily here already as well as many other identities.

A constitution that gives equality and parity of esteem to all is what we need.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120281335#Comment_120281335

Which would be a logical point if said economy wasn't already sh*tting the bed before they existed, Blanch.

That was pretty much my point, but of course you hold that opinion. You'd blame the Provos for bad weather if you could get away with it.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120281414#Comment_120281414

Native?

By definition the British identity isn't NATIVE to this island, Blanch.

The British identity certainly has enough history here, enough intermingling and the situation in the North makes it worthy of special attention but it certainly isn't native. The clue is in the name.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120273937#Comment_120273937

One person making “a call” for something does not equal (multiple) people talking (formally) about an issue.

We’ve had over a hundred years of people making calls for a United Ireland and none of them have ever resulted in five minutes of (formal) talks about it, much less the prospect of delivery of it.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120281581#Comment_120281581

When do you become native?

Settled here for 1000 years should be sufficient. After all, shouldn't we Celtic Irish then just move over for the Neolithic predecessors?

As for the name, the British Isles is sufficient to address that point. The British people in Northern Ireland are here long enough to be considered native, and in fact their culture dates back longer than Traveller culture which has distinct ethnic recognition already.

This is an uncomfortable and difficult conversation for many republicans and I appreciate that, but it has to be put out there.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120281611#Comment_120281611

Primarily because the two parties of government ignored it during those years. Partition was never intended to be permanent, but FF and FG got comfy with what they had.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120273965#Comment_120273965

And the Loyalists have also threatened violence if the border is an Irish Sea one.

So, having handed a veto to both sets of unelected gunmen - precisely the groups that the peace process promised we’d be rid of twenty five years ago - we can’t have a border in either location lest it upset one or other of them.

That of course means the U.K. and Ireland must be in the same customs union to avoid a customs border somewhere and, as that is incompatible with EU membership and as the U.K. isn’t going to rejoin the EU in the short or (more likely than not) medium terms, our government better trigger article 50.

Don’t worry if doing so destroys the economy in the process, or if the democratic majority are overwhelmingly against it, the vetos of the gunmen must take precedence.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120281625#Comment_120281625

Not for this one, or any other true republican I know. I'm more than happy with every identity living on this island. as long as they are democrats.

A true republican will not specify identities in a constitution, they will cherish all identities living in a country.

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120281414#Comment_120281414

What, the British identity is not native to Ireland. It is native to Britain. People with this identity in Ireland will tell you their ancestry came here from Britain during the plantations.

Why does the constitution have to mention any identity or special recognition , Does the current constitution mention any identity? we will be a republic treat everyone the same by law, allow self expression and there wont be a problem. We saw the NI jurisdiction failure stems from the fact it did not treat people equally and still shows the scares today. Why would a new jurisdiction repeat those failures.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120281638#Comment_120281638

No, it was because there has never been anything close to a majority in NI that might consider the idea. You can’t have talks about a topic if the various peoples you need to reach agreement with wouldn’t even consider accepting an invite to your talks.

It’d be like Ireland trying to hold talks on changing the EU Treaties on its own if none of the other countries had the slightest interest in doing so.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120281663#Comment_120281663

I don’t get the impression that you are particularly happy with the various unionist identities, much less interested in cherishing them.

Perhaps I am wrong about that impression though.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120281687#Comment_120281687

The only reason you get change is because someone leads. They didn't. They ignored it and they also ignored what was happening in the north until it was too late.

Societal change and constitutional change was brought about by people talking and campaigning on the issues. The GFA itself and other agreements came about from people talking and campaigning too.

So too will a BP and that process has begun.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120281700#Comment_120281700

I lived around and worked with moderate Unionists all my life. I have zero issue with Unionism other than I disagree with it.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120276368#Comment_120276368

I would say the opposite.

Its easy to be for something when its just an idea, an ideal.

When the UI plan is put out, there will be many many holes in it for people to pick at and not like. Expect support for it to drop like a stone if and when any realistic plan is put forward.

We in the South are just not ready for it anyway. The common discourse is proof of that. Anything from the RIC commemoration, to any appeasement to Unionist demands is met with wild far right like Nationalism.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120281625#Comment_120281625

A starting point for being native might be not culturally identifying with an entirely different landmass as a starting point for me, Blanch. The British are about as, 'native' to Ireland as the French. By your logic, the Italians are native to England.

I'm of planter stock myself, so what the Celtic Irish should do is none of my concern; I'm not a native myself. When I use the term native, I'm not expressing any position on peoples' rights to live in their home.

British Isles absolutely isn't sufficient to address a damn thing, even if we ignore the entirely anglo-centric nature of that controversial terminiology, British is absolutely not a demonym for, "people from the British Isles". No matter what way you want to push your WUM agenda, Ireland is not Britain.

Nor is ethnic recognition anything at all to do with what Native means, so your comment on the travelling community is equally pointless.

Are you going to have white blokes of German ancestry in Pennsylvania popping down to tell Shawnee people that they're Native American next?

Words have meaning, and not everything has to go through your anti-Republican filter. Just because you put it out there with a veneer of faux concern doesn't mean you're not talking absolute scutter.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120281788#Comment_120281788

I disagree on the plan/White Paper - made a huge difference to the polling in Scotland. But it is just an opinion as yours is.

On the Unionists emands - Unionists didn't demand a state commemoration of the RIC that was Charlie Flanagan and Leo Varadkar.

We are as a nation hugely welcoming to Unionists who are willing to respect us. Locally I would mention Arlene attending the Ulster Final, I was there and shook her hand and she was roundly welcomed. Similar for the Queen and any royal visit. There are many many cross community activities here in the border region where respectful interaction happens all the time.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120281824#Comment_120281824

Unionist voices especially moderate ones have made reference to the hostility we have in the south to any and all ideas of anything to do with pre-1921 Ireland when its to do with the British establishment, for example, the RIC.

They know it's a very very cold house for them at the moment unless we give them something in return. Of course, anything we give them will be met by the usual nationalistic howls of appeasement or workerism or whatever you are having yourself.

You can't square that circle. Even the issue of the women's Team singing 'Up the Ra' for us is a 'non-issue', but for them is certainly an issue. We are just too far apart really and are in reality decades away from any middle ground.

 Similar for the Queen and any royal visit.

That's funny, as you were someone who was 100% against that visit at the time. Are you now saying in hindsight you were wrong? SF have more or less admitted recently that they got that one wrong.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120281957#Comment_120281957

I can square that circle and did, which you didn't address. Unionists are also happily taking part in the shared island programme. the Future Ireland project and as I said many cross community projects. What you also neglect to mention is the issue of Unionist/Loyalist 'songs' and provocation which is something we all need to address. Our current President has done some amazing work on this - ethical commemoration and respect - seminars I attended along with many Unionists reps at the Abbey Theatre. All of the above is ongoing work.

What of course you meant are howls from some Unionists and there also howls from some nationalists.

Re: the Queens visit.

Yes, I objected to it, as the alleged collusion between her forces in the bombing of my county town and Dublin had not been addressed and FF and FG had studiously let the families of those atrocities down and still do. While still angry about that (still hasn't been addressed) I recognise how much of a watershed it was for the British and us.

Brendan Bendar

Shows how far we have to go if a Fermanagh native attending an Ulster Final is newsworthy.

Lookit….. when all the jawing and idealism and lofty rhetoric dies down the crunch will be economy related.

Make no mistake about that, will the o North be happy to be succumbed into an All Ireland scenario with th loss of all the ‘handy numbers’ available now and will the South be able to absorb the huge change which will occur with a British withdrawal.both economically and otherwise.

It may be simplistic but that’s what will decide things eventually, not airy waffle or lofty idealism.

Thats best kept for the barstool, and the pseudo intellectuals who infest the airwaves the media and social media.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120282251#Comment_120282251

What it shows is that if nationalists and unionists can respect each other then all the historical angst can wither away, be compartmentalised and each side's version of history respected. What Arlene did at that time and the respect shown by 30,000 GAA supporters was a public example of what has been happenin across communities in the north.

A Ui will be about more than economics, just like every referendum in the north and indeed here is about more than economics.

I get that the anti UI campaigners will try to make it solely about economics because that is about the only way they can win.

On the other issues they are not, from what I can see, progressive nor even inclusive, They routinely seek to exclude a segment of Irish people's right to decide their own fate. Even the British have recognised that right.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120281669#Comment_120281669

Articles 1-3 talk about the Irish nation. That exclusionary language must go in any united Ireland.

Recognition of the special position of the British identity on this island is a must.