Cost of a United Ireland and the GFA

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120281818#Comment_120281818

I know it is difficult for those of nationalist stock to accept that we don't have an exclusive Irish identity on this island, and that we never will, and that the history of this island requires us to acknowledge that within our constitution. Any new constitution for this island will have to recognise the British heritage, the British identity and give is equal billing with the Irish identity. Anything else is assimilation.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120281957#Comment_120281957

Look at the naked hostility on this thread to any idea of acknowledging the British identity in a new Ireland. The mask slips when this is brought into the conversation.

British people have settled here for centuries, they are part of this island, we are not exclusively Irish.

You are right about the "Up the Ra" stuff, it is grossly insulting to those whose friends and families were killed by the PIRA. That so many down here were unable to recognise that is really scary. It demonstrates a lack of empathy and a lack of sensitivity to the victims of the PIRA.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120282503#Comment_120282503

Can't see the problem here. Enshrining the rights of ALL identities is the only way to do this. It also futureproofs the constitution.

That the British identity is included will be a given and on an equal footing constitutionally.

Any new constitution cannot be a tool to appease sections of any community.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120282515#Comment_120282515

British people live here without a problem, and more are predicted to come.

What you require here is special recognition for those who cannot cope with being treated equally, currently demanding a veto over the affairs of the majority.

Panthro

Can we not have a united island where we keep Irish customs (such as the language) AND British customs no? Surely tolerance has to work both ways.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120282555#Comment_120282555

It seems not, every obstacle is put in the way. There is an element that just wants to stamp out the British identity, hides their lack of tolerance and empathy in a faux concern for all identities. It is nauseatingly transparent.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120282555#Comment_120282555

All the main players in the pro UI camp have said that respect for cultures, customs and identities is key. That cuts both ways.

Attempting to single out identities in a multi identity island is a throwback to divisive binary days.

What is required is a country and constitution that is inclusive of all and which recognises that respectful rememberance and commemoration of different versions of our history is legitimate.

kazamo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120280793#Comment_120280793

People won’t vote to be poorer on the promise that it will work out at some undetermined time.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120282909#Comment_120282909

I don't see any of the political parties asking them to do that, do you? A UI will be offered as an investment in the future with the various payoffs heavily touted. And we don't as yet have any idea what the costs might be.

Again it points to the need for the anti-campaign to campaign negatively (scaremonger?) and to be aligned/associated with Unionists who will be championing diminishing handouts from the UK.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120282503#Comment_120282503

Your usual self-assured smugness does absolutely nothing to address anything you actually replied to.

I absolutely recognise the British heritage (considering I wouldn't exist without it, that would be a bit stupid), you've seen me actively defend the British identity on here, and you've also seen that I've repeatedly called for it to be protected should Unification occur, so you can take your nonsense elsewhere.

Not one word of your reply changes the fact that words have meanings, and British is not native to Ireland any more than German, Polish or Irish are native to the USA.

Brendan Bendar

I’d certainly like to have more robust delineation than “the future” and a lot more robust attempt on costs.

Buying a ‘pig in a poke’ comes to mind and given the general make up of those politicos championing this, I would be even more reluctant to buy in without a ton more hard info and a lot more time.

Importing serious trouble into the State as evidenced recently that they ‘haven’t gone away’ is not what encourages me.

kazamo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120282967#Comment_120282967

I don’t see any of the political parties other than SF, looking for a UI, so your point is irrelevant.

When the time comes that we have the referendum, we will be asked to fund the North, for an undetermined time.

Given that they currently need a subsidy, are looking for education and health outcomes to be improved so that increases the money requirements the fact they can’t even meet in Stormont……….yet it will all be ok because the EU and US will be eager to fund this and multinationals will be eager to locate in the six counties……..you live in the land of make believe and you keep peddling the line that the six counties won’t cost us…..

United Ireland needs leprechaun economics to make it look like a half reasonable proposal

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120283101#Comment_120283101

When the time comes that we have the referendum, we will be asked to fund the North, for an undetermined time.

What will be presented IMO by the supporting parties will be a costing for running a new united country. What anti-UIers will have to do is parse out what extra that will cost (if anything much) and try to scare those who are positive about a new Ireland.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120283017#Comment_120283017

You call it smugness, call it whatever you want, but the British are here, they are part of this island, part of the heritage, part of the landscape, we don't have an Ireland for the Irish, we never will, and that reality is something that needs to be adjusted to. Including the explicit recognition of the British identity on this island as part of a new Constitution is only the starting point to account for that, but it seems that is too much for some of the good republicans (not including yourself) on here.

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120282491#Comment_120282491

That is about who is entitled to citzienship to the state called Ireland. Ireland can only offer irish citizenship to its jurisdiction and no other.

Anyone's born in Ireland is entitled irish citzienship and it is called that because the demonym or adjative for Ireland is irish and no other. The nation of people that comes from Ireland is called irish and they are entitled to irish citizenship of the jurisdiction if it exists. The irish state has no authority to give out any other citzienship. Your ideology is now trying to change language.

Ps British is not native to Ireland. Say that to anyone with that identity and they will tell you where their identity originates. This your ideology of again.

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120282503#Comment_120282503

No. It doesn't have to recognise any native or foreign heritage. As i said the current constitution just says who is entitled to irish citizenship.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120281625#Comment_120281625

The “British people in Wales” are both Welsh and British. Equally the “British people in Northern Ireland” are Irish and British.

The existence of an independent Irish nation which means many Irish people are Irish only does not detract from the full “Irishness” of people in Northern Ireland, just as the absence of an independent Welsh nation does not diminsh the “Welshness” of the people of Wales and make them somehow less Welsh than they are.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120282744#Comment_120282744

That sounds good in theory. The reality though is that Irish universities actively and knowingly discriminate at entry level against people who are educated in the various U.K. education systems.

That of course primarily effects Irish people from GB or from NI (both communities) who apply to study at Irish universities, since they form the majority of applicants from the U.K.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120284145#Comment_120284145

Stop discriminating?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120283435#Comment_120283435

Huh?

All identities are considered equal in my republic Blanch.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120284170#Comment_120284170

They are choosing to discriminate and neither they nor anyone else is interested in stopping doing so.

facehugger99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120280810#Comment_120280810

Of course the Brits would love to be rid of the place but it's not that easy.

Sure they would have loved to get rid of the Falkland Islands decades ago, well before the Argentinians invaded, but guess what flag still flies over those islands.

Call it a penance for their colonial past but the Brits will be left picking up the tab for Nordieland for some time to come and as taxpayers, we should all be grateful for that.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120284318#Comment_120284318

to get rid of the Falkland Islands decades ago,

Wrong, like the Chagos Island's the Falklands has strategic value in terms of oil and the Antartic.

They'll send warships to the Southern Ocean but they won't do the same for NI.

facehugger99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120284525#Comment_120284525

Take a break from the incessant posting Francie and go read a history book or something - it'll do you the power of good.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120284600#Comment_120284600

For one, islands are strategically important, especially as cash-strapped global navies, including the United Kingdom, seek permanent outposts for refueling or as a springboard for projecting power. With the rise in global piracy, islands are a critical asset for guaranteeing the security of navigational routes and international trade.

...

Oil and access to Antarctica are two other critical issues. Currently, Desire Petroleum, Argos Resources, Rockhopper Exploration, Borders and Southern Petroleum, and Falkland Oil & Gas Limited are drilling in waters under dispute. So far only Rockhopper has announced a find: a field that could hold 1.086 billion barrels of oil.

Where there is oil, so too will you find the British and the US etc.

https://americasquarterly.org/article/thirty-years-later-the-importance-of-the-malvinas/

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120283435#Comment_120283435

I agree with everything in your post Blanch, but it is a total non-sequitur.

You're trying to pivot to throwing around implications to avoid acknowledging the simple fact that British people, no matter how much we welcome them, protect them in our constitution, celebrate their culture or anything else, will continue to not be native to Ireland. You can try and deflect by insinuating that this fact is somehow xenophobic, but whether you like it or not words have meanings.

You'll note my posts are all focused on addressing your claim that British people are native to Ireland, your posts are desperately swerving into any remotely related issue possible to try sparing your blushes behind a haze of distortions and insinuations.

I'd have a modicum of respect for an argument about whether the current Irish people are indeed native to Ireland, or who is really native to anywhere.....but insisting that people who originated on a different landmass, who actively retain the culture of said different landmass are somehow native to this one? Well that's just foolish.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120284179#Comment_120284179

Does that include respecting the right of those identities to refuse to have anything to do with your republic if they aren’t interested in it?

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120284668#Comment_120284668

Humans aren’t native to the island of Ireland, so arguing about who is or isn’t native to it, based on when they or their ancestors arrived, is futile.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120284789#Comment_120284789

If they behave like democrats.

I don’t like a lot of things about how our country is run but I am a democrat and other than not liking it, I criticise it, but that’s as far as it goes.

realitykeeper

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120235225#Comment_120235225

Speaking of Fianna Fail, I see they are down in the latest opinion poll and so soon after Bertie Ahern rejoined the party. Well my guess is FF backbenchers love Bertie more than they love their seats. Each to their own.