Cost of a United Ireland and the GFA

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120637369#Comment_120637369

Since the IMC finished its work, which was a long time ago, some weapons recovered by the police have been linked to paramilitaries. Besides, not too long after decommissioning Gerry A. said "they have not gone away y'know" or words to that effect. I think we all knew who he was referring to.

FrancieBrady

So you think the IRA are still operating as paramilitaries. Ok. Nobody in authority does.

But even if they were, does that excuse the DUP meeting with loyalist paramilitaries we know for a fact are being arrested for paramilitary activities?

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120637470#Comment_120637470

No. I agree with another poster who said both the Gardai and the PSNI believe that the PIRA Army Council still control Sinn Fein, well, according to their more recent statements on the matter. And he gave the link.

My point was loyalist can make threats just as republicans have .. I wrote "Just the same as the "New" IRA or "Real" IRA or Continuity IRA are different to the Provisional IRA ( remember the Republican group which was involved with a few bombs before the Brexit negotiations to warn about the dangers of a hard border - bomb found in Armagh Feb 2020, the bomb in Derry in Jan 19 I think it was etc ) , so loyalist groups are presumably different people etc to those other loyalists 40 years ago / can warn and huff and puff as well. They are all equally as bad as each other. One thing for sure, there will not be a peaceful united Ireland."

The DUP can talk with whoever they like the if that reduces the risk of violence. Talk talk is better than violence, and understanding peoples views is sometimes important. Solving problems is important. As is trying to persuade people not to use violence. Both governments talked with the IRA long before the GFA, as far back as the early seventies.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120637495#Comment_120637495

I didn’t read after your first line where you sidestepped again.

The Gardai and PSNI do not believe the IRA is operating as a paramilitary organisation.

if they do believe they are active and have lied to their governments then that reflects on them.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120636646#Comment_120636646

So much for your inclusive Ireland.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120638121#Comment_120638121

You are the person that refuses to recognise the mandates of the two largest political parties in NI and want them extinguished. I don't think you can take the high moral ground on inclusivity.

Francis McM

Francie Brady, what do you think of Maccored's comment, in relation to the head of our Gardai? ("asking a loyalist what he thinks of the IRA - hilarious stuff there... ") post 1077

This is what I said to Maccored:  That is a slur against a law abiding citizen who happens to be from the Protestant community in N. Ireland and is working here in the Republic. You have no proof he is a loyalist. I have heard ordinary decent Protestants here in the Republic been verbally attacked before about being loyalists and paisleyites and what not, and people taunting them with Uh Ah up the RA and such like, it is not funny. And then you wonder why the Protestant population went from roughly 10% to 3% in the 20th century in Ireland.

Kielty is right, we are not ready for a UI. Have we really moved on much sometimes? Maybe in 100 years.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120638178#Comment_120638178

Maccored is from the north, I suspect he knows more of this man's background and the controversy surrounding him, (that has not been addressed) than you or I.

If he wishes to elaborate, no objection here.

In the meantime, have a read here:

https://www.relativesforjustice.com/drew-harris-must-resign-in-light-of-glenanne-judgment/

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120638121#Comment_120638121

Unlike you and others on this site on both sides, I hold both the DUP and Sinn Fein in utter contempt.

Any sign of those posts you're going to find of me being even remotely positive about SF to justify your, 'unlike you' here, Blanch?

Or would you like to withdraw that foolish accusation?

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120638220#Comment_120638220

It is clear from your and his previous posts people like him (our current head of Gardai) would be out : all the more reason not to have a U.I.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120638262#Comment_120638262

Drew Harris or any other Garda Commissioner need to be answerable for their actions, we are not a police state.

There are, in that link, clear questions raised that have never been addressed.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120638422#Comment_120638422

That is a different issue : you and Maccord clearly do not respect both the Gardai and the PSNI analysis that the PIRA Army Council still control Sinn Fein, according to their more recent statements on the matter.

Maccord denigrates by calling the head of our Gardai a "loyalist". I have head Protestants been called worse here in the Republic I suppose.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120638497#Comment_120638497

I couldn't give a damn who 'controls' any party, I could care less who controls SF as long as they are not engaged in paramilitary activity.

Before I voted for them in a GE(2020, 22 years after the GFA) I looked to see were they living up to their commitments to the GFA. They were, decommissioning had happened and the IRA were engaged in 'exclusively peaceful means'.

You can cherrypick from that report all you want but it satisfied even the DUP in it's conclusions (that the IRA had a “wholly political focus” and poses no threat to the British state or the peace process) enough to resume power sharing, so why not you and others?

The same report also assessed that the UDA had held on to arms despite claiming otherwise and that the UVF had done the same. Members of both organisations continued to be engaged in crime including drug dealing, while the rival LVF exists now as a purely criminal enterprise.

Those being the groups Arlene and the DUP wants to be stakeholders.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120638586#Comment_120638586

lol. You say you "couldn't give a damn who 'controls' any party,". You obviously you are very annoyed both the Gardai and the PSNI analysis of the matter is that the PIRA Army Council still control Sinn Fein, according to their more recent statements on the matter. I did not even bother reading the rest of your post after that.

From your previous posts you also do very much "give a damn" if a unionist party would so much as speak to loyalists in their community.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120638616#Comment_120638616

The IRA were meant to come into democratic politics, they did. Fact.

I seriously doubt the influence of an Army Council but even if they are influencing, so what if they are engaged in exclusively peaceful means and have a wholly political focus. It's the GFA, which I signed up to, in action.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120638638#Comment_120638638

If you take it SF / IRA were two sides of the same coin ( Cowen told McGuinness and co to look in the mirror if they wanted to chat to the IRA ), they were already in politics, just not getting many votes while they still had the armalite in one hand.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120639028#Comment_120639028

That is why I didn't vote for them until I was satisfied the IRA were no longer active militarily. They are now just political activists like any other in any other party.

What didn't you understand about that?

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120639063#Comment_120639063

To be honest, I would not believe , much less care, who you say you voted for before the GFA. As you seem to have the same thinking as SF have now and you are a full time poster of theirs on the 'net, I would be surprised if you did not vote SF before the GFA.

maccored

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120638121#Comment_120638121

can you make sense of that sentence for me, as I dont see the link. You posted a link to an ex RUC commander and his opinion on his greatest enemy then parade it in this thread like you made a point. obviously an ex RUC employee is not going to say nice things about the ira. as usual, you are being very one sided - and then talk about 'inclusive'

he rose to the ranks during the 80s - the IRA killed his dad. the ruc in the 80s was a disgrace, with more murder and coverups than ever ...all hidden by the RUC. I wouldnt hold Drew Harris as any kind of saviour

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120640131#Comment_120640131

lol. You accuse others of being one sided while you write language straight not unlike I used to read in an Phoblocht?

ex RUC "commander"!

"his" opinion : it was the Opinion of both the Gardai and the PSNI

"his" greatest enemy. The police forces of both jurisdictions were acting on behalf of the elected governments of both jurisdictions, and the police forces on both sides of the border had members murdered by republicans. You could therefore say Republicans were the enemy of the people, not just "his" greatest enemy.

You say there were murders and coverups...all hidden by the RUC. Well if you take Co. Fermanagh for example, 92 to 93% of the hundred and something murders there during the troubles (which were troubles related) were carried out by Republicans, and the vast majority of them unsolved.

If you think there were coverups on a large scale, I think you will find the coverups were carried out by Republicans. Even though over 99% of the explosions during the troubles were carried out by Republicans, and 60% of the murders were carried out by Republicans, how come so many loyalists were caught / jailed?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120642499#Comment_120642499

 and something murders there during the troubles (which were troubles related) were carried out by Republicans, and the vast majority of them unsolved.

Why this one stat repeated? There are many unsolved killings throughout the conflict/war, north and south.

Sam Russell

The biggest cover up in NI was the bloody Sunday shootings. It took three commissions to come to the conclusion that all those shot dead by the Paras (not the paramilitaries, but the Parachute Regiment) were innocent of carrying guns or bombs and were just protesters deliberately gunned down by the forces of the Crown. The process was continued on the Ballymurphy estate. That is what gave rise to the Provos.

Now that might be difficult to process (just as the UK Gov found it hard to admit) but it is much more serious that the legal forces of the Crown turn their guns deliberately on innocent citizens than armed terrorists respond in kind. Both sides are far from innocent, but one side was protected (and still is) by the forces of the state.

Now, I am not an apologist for either side, and have rarely visited NI. However, I do think that NI needs to start looking to the future and stop dwelling in the past wrong committed by the other side. [Of course, our side never got involved in such things - well hardly ever and always in response to the actions of the other side.]

Remember, an eye for an eye always results in a world of the blind.

FrancieBrady

Instead of once again just looking at one side of the data, if you look at the total data on legacy it's clear which community has gotten least from investigative work.

Of the 94 deceased who make up the legacy inquests being dealt with by the Coroners Service, The Detail has found:

60% were civilians who were not members of paramilitary organisations, 33% were members of republican paramilitary groups, 3% were involved in loyalist paramilitarism and 4% were members of the RUC.

81% were Catholic and 19% were Protestant.

55% were killed by state forces, 28% were killed by loyalists and 17% were killed by republicans.

Nine of the killings occurred after the Good Friday Agreement was signed but are still considered legacy cases by the Coroners Service due to their political nature.

New figures reveal scale of unsolved killings from the Troubles - Investigations & Analysis - Northern Ireland from The Detail

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120642616#Comment_120642616

You forgot to say at the beginning it said "of the 1,186 killings that the PSNI’s Legacy Investigation Branch is assessing". What about all the others?

Are the PSNI’s Legacy branch investigating the hundreds of ethnic cleansing murders along the border eg the approx 115 troubles related murders in Co. Fermanagh alone, 92 to 93% of which were committed by Republicans? No, then why not?

Are the PSNI’s Legacy branch investigating the murder of the catholic and protestant policemen in Derry just before Bloody Friday, designed to raise tensions for the march / riot that followed? No, why not?

Are the PSNI’s Legacy branch investigating the sighting of Martin McGuinness in Derry on Bloody Sunday, who was seen with a machine gun, as testified by Bishop Daly (then Fr. Daly) in court?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120643223#Comment_120643223

How do you know what they are investigating?

The point here Francis is that you can't just cherrypick to build selective narratives.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120643245#Comment_120643245

they obviously are cherrypicking and the cases they have cherrypicked are quite obvious.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120643276#Comment_120643276

How do you know this?

Can you first post a link to the source of your data?

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120643350#Comment_120643350

lol. It is well know that approx 10% of the killings during the troubles were attributed to the security forces, 30% to loyalists and 60% of republicans. Yet in your investigation 55% were killed by state forces ;)

maccored

we have no idea how much of that 60% was caused by mi5/british government pretending to be the IRA. we do know they did quite a bit of that

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120643493#Comment_120643493

Do you have a link to the data on the Fermanagh killings or not?