Cost of a United Ireland and the GFA

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120711182#Comment_120711182

Francis is correct to point out that, despite the low turnout, the total number of votes cast in favour of the union in the 1973 poll was just over 50% of all registered voters. Thus, even if all the non-voters had turned out and voted against the union, the union would still have won.

What Francis omits to say, though, was that even at the time the referendum was widely regarded as a joke, and a fairly poor one. It would make the Brexit referendum look like a model of wise statesmanship. Nobody at the time took the result seriously and now, fifty years later, when most of those who participated in it are long dead, I think the emphasis Francis puts on it and the attention he persistently draws to it does little to suggest that it is a killer argument in favour of his position. Rather, he appears to be distinctly short of killer arguments if he has to rely on this one.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120704838#Comment_120704838

Finucane was involved in a disgusting display and people need to stop equating it to Poppy Day etc. People have every right to dislike and oppose Poppy Day or any other such events. I understand that

Where this is poles apart is that it is commemorating actual individuals who were sectarian serial killers and it is commemorating in the very place they carried out that horror on their neighbours. This combined with the fact the ‘MP for all’ is the main speaker.

To put this in its full context, this is like eg:

jeffery donaldson being the main speaker at an event in Derry to commemorate the actual individual soldiers who done the shooting at Bloody Sunday, followed by bouncy castles and sweets for the kids in the Fountain

or

JD being the main speaker at an event in Belfast to commemorate Lenny Murphy and the Shankill butchers and have a party for the local kids

I don’t think there is anywhere in the western world where this would even happen, never mind a prominent MP turn up as guest speaker

Here is something that came up on my Twitter feed this morning that made me feel sick. I remember this as a kid and remember my dad mentioning it often, clearly shaken and hurt by it. James used to deliver stuff to our house. His killers were the very people john Finucane MP was commemorating by name and connecting a party for the kids with. It is very disturbing. And it disturbs me that nationalists seem so immune or brainwashed that they vote for these people in huge numbers

james Elliot was a good family man who decided to risk all by joining the udr to protect the public from the people who finally ended his life. He went out on patrol at night, after he had done his honest days work This story is repeated over and over again Disgusting behaviour by finucane

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120712660#Comment_120712660

Jeffrey's party was connected to two paramilitary orgainisations, one of them responsible for the importation of arms that killed at least 70 people. - that is a fact.

Jeffrey's party members are friends with and take counsel from many paramilitaries from still active paramilitaries = Fact

You can hand wave away Poppy day and all the hatefests that celebrate the killing of people and the wish to see people dead all you want - they are what they are.

NI is full of tribute and celebration of the oppressers and you even have the man who brought the gun into Irish politics - Carson, celebrated at the place where we are supposed to have fair and equal governance.

The contrived and patently pathetic attempt to be 'holier than thou' on these issues is disgusting. Unionism is playing victim again to deflect from their own behaviour.

In saying that, I have zero issue with both sides remembering their dead with respect and that is what would have happened here had not Arlene drawn attention to something that passed off without issue for over a decade.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120712837#Comment_120712837

Whataboutery par excellence.

Finucane made a mistake, praising and celebrating 24 terrorists who killed, mutilated, murdered and bombed in the recent past, it is not a good look. He defended himself on the basis that it was his right. Yes, he has a right to gratuitously offend victims, as he clearly did, that is one of the prices of democratic freedoms, but we also have a right to be disgusted, horrified and abhorred by his actions.

Another SF hammer blow to unity of the people.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120713307#Comment_120713307

Let’s say for arguments sake a UI is voted for.

Who gets to decide what is and who is commemorated?

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120713533#Comment_120713533

That is easy.

If you are great at hurling, then the GAA do the honours.

If you are great at soccer, the FAI do (or perhaps the IFA) might do something for you.

Then there are the various showbiz type mutual admiration dos where they all get their five minutes of fame.

We also have the Tidy Towns, and I am sure quite a few other bodies will do their own thing commemorating various people.

Otherwise, perhaps it might fall to the Irish Government.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120713762#Comment_120713762

So who is trying to decide who SF and it's members get to commemorate?

Hard to decipher your post, are you saying it should be a matter for each?

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120714008#Comment_120714008

Anyone or group can decide who they commemorate. That is OK, generally, but there are always the opportunity for others to disagree.

The problem occurs when a group commemorates those another group disagrees with them being commemorated for whatever reason.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120714036#Comment_120714036

So in your opinion what is the way forward with commemorating all those who died here?

Peregrinus

Guys, it's already the case that unionists who are offended by IRA commemorations have to put up with IRA commemorations happening anyway — we can see that from current events. This isn't a risk to which they are only exposed in the event of a united Ireland. (In fact they would likely be much less exposed to it in a united Ireland; such commemorations are many fewer and much smaller in the Republic.)

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120714100#Comment_120714100

I would not be interested in any commemoration about anyone dead or living.

In the context of getting to a UI (the title of this thread), I would think not having commemorations of any type wrt the troubles might be a price worth paying.

There were a lot of people involved in all aspects of the killings, some were innocent victims, others less so. However, none of the nasty actors (British Gov and security services), the loyalists nor republicans can claim to have clean hands. They were all involved in dastardly deeds - generally killing innocent victims.

Just the other day, the PSNI Chief Constable issued an apology to the 14 hooded men who were tortured in 1971 by the British army, and they have been accepted as being tortured by the UK Supreme Court. The British Gov has yet to issue a similar apology, and cough up compensation. One of the victims died the day before the apology was issued.

Who in their right mind wants to commemorate such things?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120714857#Comment_120714857

Totally agree with the sentiment, I have no interest in commemoration personally nor am I someone who cares about anthemns or flags.

That doesn't address the problem though. We have to have the conversation - who gets to decide what is commemorated and who is.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120714972#Comment_120714972

Simple, as I said.

We do not have national commemorations.

I someone wants to remember a wonderous sports star, then that is up to them. But a national, state backed one - nah.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120715157#Comment_120715157

Works for me.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120712563#Comment_120712563

Turnout in 73 in NI was circa 58.7% so the result was clear and decisive.

That turnout compares favourably with many referenda held in the Republic where we used to actually approve or reject amending our constitution. I don’t recall anyone ever claiming that constitutional referenda results were “jokes” because the turnout was below 58.7%. Certainly no one has ever argued that we need a minimum turnout in referenda for their result to be deemed binding.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120716497#Comment_120716497

I haven't said anything about turnout (except to make the point that the low turnout didn't prevent an absolute majority of the electorate from endorsing the union). I don't know why you're banging on about turnout.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120716497#Comment_120716497

Why keep harping on about 73? Apart from the fact it was clearly boycotted, NI stayed in the Union.

Now we are coming to the point where another one is required.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120716762#Comment_120716762

Now we are coming to the point where another one is required.

A) no we're not.

B) the only person whose opinion matters on whether one is required is the NI SOS anyway.

Just basic UK politics tells you its not happening in the next 7 years.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120716812#Comment_120716812

Absolutism about UK politics? Hope you are not a betting man Podge.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120716815#Comment_120716815

The chances of a first term Labour government wasting any time or effort on a NI border poll are zero. There are few enough things I'd be sure about in UK politics alright, but that's one of them.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120716866#Comment_120716866

It will be entirely based on what they inherit.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120716866#Comment_120716866

You are correct. Any first term Labour government will have a small majority. Anything unnecessary and controversial will be avoided. A border poll is not something that a Labour government wants to die on a hill for. Fanciful nonsense to suggest that they will have any concrete interest in it. Plenty of noise all right, but nothing more than that.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120717011#Comment_120717011

(while I don't necessarily think it will lead to an early border poll, all opinion polls have for some time been suggesting that the next Labour government will have a large majority. While the polls could shift between now and then, there's very little basis for your flat statement that the will have a small majority. In so far as we can compare the current situation with historical precdents, they all end with a change of government and a large majority for the newcomers, so the polls are suggesting what we would expect anyway.)

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120716892#Comment_120716892

I don't really know what you mean by that.

I would disagree with blanch in that I think there is every chance of a stonking Labour majority. But it doesn't matter. It will be their first term in government for 14 years, they are simply not about to use that time to unnecessarily bring about potential significant constitutional upheaval in the UK.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120717092#Comment_120717092

That's exactly what they did the last time they came into government with a stonking majority after years in the wilderness, in 1997. (And it worked out very well for them.)

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120717110#Comment_120717110

Fair, although I would argue there is a rather significant difference between concluding a peace process that helps settle conflict in your country and losing a part of the country. I don't particularly see any potential upside to the latter.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120717092#Comment_120717092

If they inherit the current mess in NI, and another nationalist FM excluded because of Unionist intransigence.

Like FF and FG, the jewel of a solution to the NI problem may be hard to resist for a British government too. As I have said elsewhere I think FF and to a lesser extent FG are jockeying to find a position where they might see themselves of leaders of that effort.

For the British specifically - finally extracting themselves from it will be hugely attractive and Labour's traditional opinion would be that they have no objection to a UI if it happens in the right way.

There is also the possibility that you will have a nationalist FM and SF in government here.

Being absolute about how it will pan out is completely bonkers IMO

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120717124#Comment_120717124

For the British specifically - finally extracting themselves from it will be hugely attractive

Fair enough, I completely disagree with you on this very premise which would make agreement difficult. There is a pretty large leap from not particularly caring about a part of the country to actively wanting it to essentially secede. Going down in history as the first party to lose part of the UK in 100 years is not the stuff that stirring histories are made of.

It would be one thing if there was a huge undercurrent of demand for a border poll and a nationalist majority in Stormont but there is neither. The status quo of largely ignoring NI is perfectly acceptable.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120717118#Comment_120717118

I don't think there'd be any electoral downside in GB for the government that presided over the unification of Ireland via the process provided for in the GFA. The opposite, if anything.

(And maybe worth pointing out that, at the 1922 GE, the first after Southern Ireland left the UK, Bonar Law's Conservatives were returned with an increased majority. This wasn't a response to the Treaty; it was more an artefact of the decline of the Liberals and the rise of Labour. The Treaty hardly featured in the election campaign at all, which tells its own story.)

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120717162#Comment_120717162

I came to that conclusion based on polling in the UK.

In the British mind NI is a place apart and was never really a fully fledged part of the Union.

I don’t think therefore solving the dilemma of getting out of it will hurt any British government.