Cost of a United Ireland and the GFA

jh79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120762723#Comment_120762723

No. They chose this tactic because they believed talking about unity would reduce their vote share. Toxic is therefore apt.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120762746#Comment_120762746

That's nonsense and you know it. Adopting a strategy for local elections does not mean they think unity is 'toxic'.

It simply was not relevant and there were more pressing issues.

If you can convince yourself that a BP and potential unity isn't front and centre in the north's media and political minds, then go ahead. Just don't be inventing stuff to try prove it.

jh79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120762754#Comment_120762754

There is a difference between having more pressing issues taking center stage to purposely avoiding talking about unity.

Unity doesn't seem to be in the electorate minds though which what really matters.

Support for a UI is stagnant, SF avoid the issue in NI and provide nothing in terms of selling it in this country either.

Gerry predicted a UI in 2016, then it morphed to a BP by 2030 and now the BP is getting pushed out to the next decade by Arins.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120762783#Comment_120762783

Which doesn't mean they 'think it is toxic' jh79.

You invented that position for them.

You are also inventing a scenario where a BP and potential unity is not on people's minds. Even a casual review of what the media in NI is reflecting would scotch your theory in a heartbeat.

A 'UI' has not as yet been outlined by it's proposers. So you will not see much movement in the polls until that happens. That is what is being ramped up now, pressure on the Irish government to begin planning for unity.

You deny that too. So I am not going to try and convince you.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120762611#Comment_120762611

Jh79 is 100% accurate on this. It was much reported up north. They wee the first party in British isles to base their whole election pitch on a USA style pr spin. But yes clearly they were advised Ui was toxic

jh79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120762827#Comment_120762827

While there is plenty of pressure on the government i would be quite confident that none of it has anything to do with unity.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120762845#Comment_120762845

Keep believing and inventing stuff if it helps jh, as I said.

jh79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120762865#Comment_120762865

It's a fact that SF avoided talking about unity. Ignore it if it helps Francie.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120762879#Comment_120762879

The fact is you invented the word 'toxic' jh79.

Unity was not relevant to the local elections, if they made it a key part of the campaign they would have been accused of avoiding the cost of living crisis. They are active on the issue all over the country and don't avoid it.

Don't dig the hole any deeper jh79.

jh79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120762903#Comment_120762903

Under what circumstances will it become relevant? According to you it's the cause of all NI ills. Surely it is always relevant!

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120762914#Comment_120762914

The next step will be an Irish government beginning to plan and work on the proposal.

It was not being voted on in the local elections. It seemed to occupy Unionists quite a bit though.

jh79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120762945#Comment_120762945

How would you describe the political ability of the unionist parties? I wouldn't use them as a barometer.

Unity has stagnated in the opinion polls, SF decided it would be better for them to avoid talking about it in the run up to the last election. Very little being done by any of the parties in this country or NI. Criticism from Emma DeSouza of all parties on the island for their inaction.

Hardly the signs we are on the cusp of change!

Is your belief that unity is coming entirely based on SF success and the changing demographics in NI ?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120762974#Comment_120762974

As I said, I have no interest in trying to convince you again. That you have to rubbish any signals posted here about the work being done speaks more of your fear/dislike than anything else.

Majorities in both jurisdictions want a BP, which indicates to me they know a BP will force the government to produce a plan. They are not prepared to vote for something when they have no idea what it will be. If you asked me to vote for Unity in the morning, I wouldn't without a plan.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120762303#Comment_120762303

This is more whataboutery, Downcow. It doesn't address the fact that despite your assertions that your community doesn't pay much attention to Irish culture, you've posted more on the topics of the GAA and the Irish Language than I have on any topics of your culture combined, you've started threads and posted constantly disparaging both.

I've responded to and disagreed with Francie on many issues around these topics, but none of that is relevant to the nonsense you've posted.

We've discussed bonfires at length previously, Downcow. My position now remains the same as my position then, and would remain the same in the event that Unification should occur. I do think they're an important part of your culture and should be protected, but not in their current format. Get rid of the flags, effigies etc burning on them, stop burning stolen pallets and give proper, documented and planned consideration to the safety of the residents, attendees and the builders and I'm all for it.

Some progress has certainly been made over the years (though not as much as you liked to pretend when the subject was last discussed and you posted photos from early in the day before flags and effigies etc were added to the fires to suggest these things didn't happen any more).

The last time we spoke about it, I gave a specific example of a fire that had been set up as what looked like a real community event, less flag shagging and skulling Buckfast, more day out for the kids. If events were carried out in this manner and the standards I suggested implemented, not only would I not object to them, I'd actively support funding them. Unfortunately I can't recall where this fire was, as I'd love to throw some photos up again.

I'm also firmly in agreement with you that those who object on environmental grounds could probably do with looking at their own carbon footprint before a bunch of working class folk who have very little and who probably aren't off jet set multiple times a year like many of the champagne socialists pushing that sort of agenda.

None of this changes the fact that you were talking scutter when you said

I rarely hear are [sic] community interested, let alone complaining, at your cultural oddities. I find it strange that you guys seem so focused on ending ours

And you were talking even wetter scutter when you tried to say you were supportive of the Irish language given that not so long ago you were smugly boasting about how legislation to protect it had been delayed.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120763160#Comment_120763160

Well that’s quite a post.

I appreciate your support of properly run 11th night events. Fair play to you. Some on here think unionist event = bigots.

the problem is that there is the full continuum on display, same as eg the west Belfast festival (I know you’ll say whataboutery but I don’t really care). Some wonderful events right through to the bonfire with flags or the ooh ahh up the ra event.

this is only a guess but I doubt if 1% have effigies, yet you have it in nearly every post about the fires - your issue, not mine

I have three big fires within 20 miles of me. Kilkeel, ballynahinch and Rathfriland. My understanding is that they are run very professionally. Haven’t been to Rathfriland, but ballynahinch is lit on old waste ground to the side of a huge car park in the Protestant end of town. Kilkeel fire also in exclusively prod part of town on the beach and before they head off the the twelfth the next day they have a digger on the beach and leave no trace of it.

I think your community needs to leave us alone on this one. We will work it out much quicker if those who killed 100s of our young people would stop patronising us about worrying about our kids safety. Don’t worry the kids mums will do that

I appreciate you acknowledging the movement. You think it’s slow, I think it’s fast. Remember these are working class communities who feel under attack from republicanism, they are moving wonderfully fast given the circumstances. Compare to our first minister elect still eulogising killers. Maybe that could catch up.

anyhow, I acknowledge again some fairness in your post. You should take yourself to a fire for the experience- you’ll love it

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120763636#Comment_120763636

Even though you're acknowledging it, your entire reply is almost entirely whataboutery.

According to you, we've gone from thousands of fires to hundreds. If we took your estimates, that would mean the number of fires with effigies and flags burning on them to be single digit. Let's just say I think you're well wide of the mark.

I visited the fire just off Tates Avenue many moons ago when I was living in Belfast.

As for working class communities who feel like they're under attack from Republicanism.....that's more to do with your own political representatives and their friendly local UVF drug dealers than any actual reality. Funny enough any time I hear about your, 'community under seige' and ask for examples, I rarely get a single concrete one that wouldn't be seen as perfectly normal in any other society.

As for let their mothers worry about their safety? Catch yourself on. If there were kids driving cars up and down the road at a hundred mile an hour would you apply the same logic?

'Your community needs to leave us alone on this one' is the most telling.....if you want your culture to thrive and grow, it needs to be a whole lot more inclusive, or at least less actively exclusive.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120763636#Comment_120763636

I think your community needs to leave us alone on this one.

'Leave us to our environmentally damaging hate fests', is what this means and it's coming from a community building higher and more dangerously every year so as somebody notices.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120763684#Comment_120763684

“Funny enough any time I hear about your, 'community under seige' and ask for examples, I rarely get a single concrete one that wouldn't be seen as perfectly normal in any other society.”

that's a bit rich coming from someone who has just scolded me for mentioning Bloody Sunday. Disgusting really.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120764296#Comment_120764296

Bloody Sunday is an historic example of something awful that happened. If you're suggesting that it isn't a legitimate complaint, well we have an entirely different conversation to have.

I didn't criticise you for mentioning it at all by the way, I criticised you suggesting that as a paramilitary recruiting tool, state forces murdering civilians was in any way akin to a legitimate democratic voting process.

I mention that I never get concrete examples about Unionist complaints about being under seige.....you respond with precisely zero examples and off to deflection city. You prove my point for me perfectly, Downcow.

Under attack my arse. When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120763684#Comment_120763684

You say “As for let their mothers worry about their safety? Catch yourself on. If there were kids driving cars up and down the road at a hundred mile an hour would you apply the same logic?”

This ‘we are worried about the safety of young prods’ rings a little hollow. The shinners are in a state round my way at the minute about the safety of young prods out collecting for the fires. You really couldn’t make it up.

setting aside the number of young prods they murdered and maimed, it still doesn’t add up.

Much more chance statistically of getting hurt, or worse, playing Gaelic and there’s not a word about. And then multiple that many times for kids involved in equestrian hobbies or kids on farms with quads and tractors.

I do not believe a word of it when nationalists, yourself included, express concern about our young people at bonfires. And I see francie is on again in his last post about the environment. That why I say leave us alone on this one. We are ok. Put your energy into keeping kids safe at the GAA club or the church chior.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120764316#Comment_120764316

Fionn you don’t want to know. I think I posted here somewhere that the last unionist who was not driven out of my town died about six weeks ago aged 99. The police had to attend 2 days before his death because of a sectarian attack on his house. I could give you endless examples. But you only want to know about Bloody Sunday

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120764316#Comment_120764316

Fionn I have tried to be reasonable with you but that is just lies. I did not say anything about a vote being a recruitment tool. I said if supremacists after a Ui win, disregard northern Irish desire for maintaining their identity, that is a recruiting tool. So I am losing patience with lies and spin

johannmall

The north's economy has been called a millstone around the Union by the TELEGRAPH , that says it all !

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120764372#Comment_120764372

Link please

thats a problem for the shinners. Roi can choose to not take us. The Uk can’t thanks to the gfa

johannmall

I'm not au fait with tech , I'd love to back it up with a link , I'll have a root but I'll never put something down that I can't stand over !

johannmall

Sorry , I tried clipboard , Google northern Ireland millstone & the telegraph page comes right up ! I should get up to speed on this Internet stuff !

johannmall

I thought we were discussing economics ????

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120764408#Comment_120764408

It was a think tank that made the ‘millstone’ comment and recommended a referendum.

Rather than it upsetting shinners it was Unionism who went berserk.

None of them could deny the claim though. That is the unfortunate result of gloating about handouts for decades, kinda hard to pretend the opposite is the case.

johannmall

Won't argue with you sir ! As I told the other poster , Google northern Ireland millstone, And the telegraph article comes up !

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120764342#Comment_120764342

A link to this story would be appreciated. We've had enough instances of you presenting supposedly innocent seeming stories that have an awful lot more beneath the surface.

For the record, YOU brought up Bloody Sunday, not me.