Cost of a United Ireland and the GFA

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120806313#Comment_120806313

It is now the case that Unionists are attempting to veto what their government and the actual people of NI want.

Is that the position you are in. If not, what is it you are doing by still holding the people to ransom?

*it is possible to answer that without reference to themuns.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120806180#Comment_120806180

Stormont is atypical due to the power sharing agreement of the GFA; anywhere else, the wishes of the majority would mean that a government could be formed without the abstentionists.

Abstentionism absolutely is a legitimate political position. Abstentionism in protest of something specifically outside the purview of the house you're abstaining from is fundamentally different.

As I said, I accept that DUP at least have a mandate to stay out of Stormont no matter how stupid I think it is, but their attempts to use abstention to blackmail Westminster IS fundamentally different from a general policy of abstention.

You could argue the hypocrisy of SF complaining about crashing Stormont when they did the same, but even then abstaining from Stormont on the basis of something that is within the ability of Stormont to resolve is still fundamentally different, so no I don't think there is Republican hypocrisy to see through, just different standards and expectations. They're different lines in the sand.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120806369#Comment_120806369

There is absolutely nothing wrong with them vetoing something if that’s what the democratic rules allow. Your argument has no logic.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120806778#Comment_120806778

Just because "the democratic rules" allow this or that party to do something, it doesn't follow that there is nothing wrong with them doing that thing. A decision taken in a democratic way can still be a dreadful decision, open to severe criticism. History abounds with examples of disgraceful decisions made in a democratic way.

It follows that, where two different decisions are taken on different occasions under the same democratic rules, one may be open to criticism that the other is not. Or they may both be open to different criticisms. You cannot defend or justify one of the decisions simply by pointing to the other decision. Each decision has to stand or fall on its own merits.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120806826#Comment_120806826

You guys need to get with democracy. Some will agree with decisions and some will not. If the rules are upsetting you then change them democratically. They were set up democratically as part of a deal, it would be wholly wrong to bully people into not using them. Certainly agitate and protest to convince others they need to support change democratically

I am opposed to the rules that ensure all parties here have to be included in government, no matter how incompetent they are or no matter what they are involved in or who runs them. But that’s the deal that was agreed democratically so it must stay like that until we find a democratic method of changing the rules.

where do we stop if we say, these are the rules that were agreed democratically, the vast majority of one community or other want to make us of those rules but, because some don’t like it, we say you are not democrats if you use them?

downcow

Can I check something, and also connect it to a Ui.

Are you guys saying that if a Ui was voted for and proceedures agreed for government. Could the nationalists say two years later, we believe unionists are being undemocratic or unreasonable by working democratically within the agreed rules because it doesn’t suit nationalist wishes now? Surely nationalists should be working democratically for changes to the agreement rather than trying to bully a community to do what they want.

Peregrinus

You're missing the point, downcow. You can accept the rules about making decisions, and still object to the decisions themselves. In fact, the ability to object to decisions that have been democratically taken is itself kind of fundamental to democracy.

You can also argue that the rules themselves are producing bad outcomes and ought to be changed, but that's a separate argument.

ittakestwo

If the DUP want to prove what a failed enity the boundary line jurisdiction pulled out of Carson's arse in 1921 is let them.

Let London and Dublin run the failed jurisdiction. DUP have the most to lose anyway with joint authority as they wont be able to stop more progressive governments of London and Dublin running the place. Intergretation of education, Intergretation of social housing, an irish language act all being able to be brought in effectively without vetos from the DUP with joint authority.

Look how the all Ireland economy is taking off thanks to brexit

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2023/0704/1392575-esri-research-on-northern-ireland-trade/#:~:text=About%2053%25%20of%20Northern%20Ireland's,160.3%20billion%20respectively%20in%202021.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120806838#Comment_120806838

You are not working 'democratically' though.

Vetoing the WF has no democratic mandate from the people. Some Unionists might object but that doesn't give a mandate to hold everyone to ransom.

Nobody tried to veto Brexit but they did object and still do.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120806099#Comment_120806099

The evidence is mounting. You dismiss that finding, you dismiss the finding that only 2% see Northern Ireland as a priority, and you can probably get away with dismissing each individual finding on its merits.

The problem is that taken in the round, taken in totality, the evidence suggests that while a united Ireland is something that people might like (similar to not paying taxes or a 2-day working week), it is not something that anyone actively wants apart from a small minority who make a large song and dance about it. A lot, actually more than a lot, huge unprecedented upheaval will have to happen to make people North and South actively want a united Ireland. That huge unprecedented upheaval will cause suffering so makes me want a united Ireland even less.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120805655#Comment_120805655

You may hold the opinion that it is not a hypocritical position for Francie to take (and I disagree with your opinion), but it is certainly a ridiculous and absurd position that he takes.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120807276#Comment_120807276

As I said, I don't think Unification will happen in the next 10 years, if asked for my top 2 priorities for government (which I believe was the actual question asked in the poll you presented with Unification at 2%), I wouldn't name Unification as one of them. According to your analysis, you'd have me in the grouping who don't actively want a United Ireland.

In reality the second half of your final sentence is what guides which polls and statistics you find, 'interesting', Blanch. It makes YOU want Unification less.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120807285#Comment_120807285

As I said, I disagree with his position myself, but it is indisputable that the scenarios can be clearly differentiated, after that it is just a matter of where your own personal line in the sand is. Someone having that line in a different place than you may be cause for disagreement but it isn't hypocrisy.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120807276#Comment_120807276

'Totalities' are in the eye of the beholder.

45% think there will be a UI in 10 years'

Majorities in both jurisdictions want a border poll.

Huge majorities want to remain in the EU.

Unionism in decline.

Peregrinus

Reunification may or may not be coming within 10 years, or any longer timescale. But you can be certain that, literally until the day it happens, people will be assuring us that it is a wildly improbable and absurdly distant possibility.

I'll only say this; it is a materially closer prospect now than it was ten years ago. People who find it an unwelcome prospect should probably spend less time and energy assuring us (and themselves?) that it will never happen, and more time and energy reflecting on the direct of travel, and what they can do to change it.

Sam Russell

Of course the Democratic Unionist Party are democratic - the clue is in the name!

Of course, that is hardly relevant, since they never agreed with the GFA, voted overwhelmingly by NI voters. They advertised at great expense (someone else's) in GB (where they have no activity as a political activity) against the EU and for Brexit - which the majority of NI voted against their position. Now they are refusing to go back into Stormont, despite the majority electing Assembly Members who do wish to go back.

I suppose that calls into focus the credibility of their name.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120806550#Comment_120806550

The bigger picture is that both of the two main sectarian parties have used the GFA to frustrate Stormont over the years and there is now an onus on the two governments to change the rules of Stormont to allow for proper coalitions and remove the sectarian designation system as the Alliance want. A reformed petition of concern arrangement as well as strengthened East/West oversight will ensure minorities are protected.

Handwaving away and excusing the Sinn Fein behaviour over the years does the people of Northern Ireland a huge disservice.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120807471#Comment_120807471

If you consider a single unitary state as the only possible United Ireland (as some on here assert), then a United Ireland is further away than ever. Previously dismissed options such as federalism and joint authority are much more likely in the medium term than a single unitary state.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120808246#Comment_120808246

There are similarities no doubt, it doesn't make someone a hypocrite for pointing out that there are also very clear differences. They may both fall on the same side of your line in the sand, while others have that line in a different place; still not hypocritical.

I see your new preferred thing to push is your reform of the GFA without any mandate from the people it will affect though. As I said when you first floated the idea, it completely undermines your attempts to position yourself as a democrat trying to take the perspectives of the Unionist community of NI into account. It makes it clear that you don't give a damn about that but would parrot any solution at all that gives you the outcome you personally want.

As I also said, anything that replaces the GFA will need a comparable direct mandate. Realistically that will only be feasible in the form of a direct referendum that provides specific changes, not some loose poll asking, 'should the GFA be reformed' to allow folk to try sneaking in supermajorities and the likes in under the noses of the people, as I suspect would be your real desired outcome of any reform.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120808311#Comment_120808311

I am open to lots of ideas and lots of solutions, the only two things I rule out are full integration into the UK and full integration into a United Ireland. Both of those options are anathema to one or other community. A spectrum of possibilities exists between those two, any of which I can accept if they receive the backing of a majority. Those who are stuck in binary mode struggle to understand my position.

The problem is that the two main sectarian parties cling to those two extremes, wanting something that is anathema to the other side, and not showing a single attempt to compromise. If Sinn Fein really wanted to put a united Ireland on the table, they would be putting forward federal-type solutions that would attract middle ground support. However, all they really want is to gain support through division and rancour.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120808340#Comment_120808340

All your 'solutions' are anathema to everyone, as nobody is looking for them.

When they are looked for they can be discussed.

A UI is NOT just a solution or want of Sinn Fein, they do not own the concept. It is the preferred option for everyone from FG/FF members to PBP members to people of no political alliance and more.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120808402#Comment_120808402

Nobody ever looks for their second choice option, that has been explained to you so many times, I am at a loss as to why you keep bringing up this complete non-argument.

I am way ahead of you binary thinkers.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120808340#Comment_120808340

Blanch, your proposal that I was referring to in this instance is to NOT EVEN ASK THE PEOPLE OF NI WHAT THEY WANT.

You criticise people for supporting a 50%+1 arrangement, but you're quite content to go with a 0% arrangement as long as it delivers what you want; avoiding Unification.

The irony of you pulling this sh*t while calling others hypocrites and binary thinkers.

At least the binary thinkers have got to A or B. You're stuck with, 'anything but A' wrapped up in a whole heap of self-assured, faux superior arrogance. It is Dunning-Krugeresque in it's lack of self awareness.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120808426#Comment_120808426

Suprematist thinking, just like Unionism.

'It's my way or the highway'.

Go do the hard work blanch. Get on the road and campaign for what you want - find a politician of substance to back you.

Then it can be discussed.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120808551#Comment_120808551

You are missing an important point. Any arrangements entered into between the governments of the UK and of Ireland are democratic in that it is the democratically elected governments who are concluding the arrangements. Many many intergovernmental arrangements are concluded without seeking the views of people in referenda.

In characterising my approach as "anything but A", you are misconstruing my views. If you were to say "anything but A or B", then it would be more accurate, as I see the current sinking back into direct rule from London, because of the weaknesses of the two main sectarian parties, as equally bad as a singular unitary Ireland. Northern Ireland deserves a distinct place in the world, be that as part of a devolved UK, a federal united Ireland, or some other construct, possibly even independence in the longer run. That is as far from the binary blinkered thinking of people like downcow and FrancieBrady as it is possible to be.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120810106#Comment_120810106

The 'blinkered view' is typically the one that has next to zero support from the electorate or the political sphere.

Especially when you are using that blinkered view to try and demean the one that has public and political support.

Suprematists do that kind of thing all the time.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120808630#Comment_120808630

I am as far as possible from "my way or the highway" thinking. I am addressing the reality that the two polarising positions in the North - either a single unitary Ireland, or full integration to the UK - are so unacceptable to substantial minorities that they are both undesirable and unworkable. A position somewhere along the spectrum between the two extreme positions is what I am suggesting is the only broadly acceptable second choice outcome that will attract support as a second choice option.

That only a number of other intelligent observers are thinking similarly (and they are out there if you care to listen) only demonstrates how far we have to travel to reach a broadly acceptable shared island.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120810134#Comment_120810134

They aren't both unacceptable to both though.

Nationalists have quite happily accepted the wishes of the majority since they voted for the GFA.

Something Unionists and partitionists forget.

It is they, Unionists and partitionists, who are now frothing at the mouth to change the agreement when it looks likely to be a UI.

It is to all intents and purposes 'my way or the highway' thinking.

eire4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120807471#Comment_120807471

There is no question that since brexit Irish reunification has become a live issue again so to speak which it really was not to any great extent prior to brexit. When exactly Irish reunification will occur who knows but its IMHO moved closer as a direct result of brexit. As an aside I saw earlier today that the Orkney Islands are considering starting moves towards leaving the UK also but with Norway in mind not Scotland.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120810106#Comment_120810106

You're suggesting that any arrangement entered between the British and Irish government, specifically one without any mandate or input from the people of NI is perfectly acceptable, yet an arrangement that hypothetically had the approval of over half of the people of the actual state affected and over half the Irish state who they would be joining isn't?

Catch yourself on, Blanch. You're talking absolute sh*te on this one.

I'm aware that you try to present yourself as the more reasonable, 'anything but A or B', but your posting makes it very clear that avoiding Unification is your priority. It's quite apparent that your idea of GFA reform specifically focuses on sneaking in something like a supermajority to avoid it.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120810153#Comment_120810153

What is it about what agreement that unionists are frothing at the mouth to change??