Cost of a United Ireland and the GFA

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120833685#Comment_120833685

Democracy is in short supply in NI owing to the strong support for divisive sectarianism. If they are in favour, then we are against - no matter what.

The one democratic decision in the last 100 years in NI - clearly politically fought and voted for - was the GFA or as the British Gov like to call it - the Belfast Agreement.

Ironically, the one major political party in NI that rejected that democratic referendum was the Democratic Unionist Party - ironic or what?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120833898#Comment_120833898

To be fair, calling an agreement after a particular religious holiday isn't a good idea in Northern Ireland, even if both celebrate it.

I agree on the short supply in NI of democracy, hence my belief that the two governments need to step in and change the way that democracy works. The two sectarian turkey political parties won't vote for any change, so the two sovereign governments need to step up. As an article on Slugger O'Toole put it recently:

"in their drive for power, tackling sectarianism is low on Sinn Fein’s priority list, while the DUP is steeped in it."

Couldn't have put it better.

Sam Russell

@blanch152

Quote: To be fair, calling an agreement after a particular religious holiday isn't a good idea in Northern Ireland, even if both celebrate it.

The opportunity to include a glossary of terms to be used in all official documents relative to this and any other communication relating to NI was a massive error.

1. The name of this agreement is ..........................
2. The term Northern Ireland refers to the jurisdiction within the island of Ireland controlled by the UK Gov.
3. The name for the Irish country is Ireland.
4. The term GB refers to the island of Great Britain and excludes NI.
5. The term UK will mean the UK region of GB and NI.
6. The term Stormont refers to the devolved Assembly for NI.
7. etc etc etc.

SF never refer to the Irish state as Ireland, but as the 26 counties or other terms, and NI as 'the North of Ireland'. Also, many Unionists refer to NI as Ulster, and Ireland as the Free State, plus other derogatory terms. It makes life easier if the vocabulary is the same throughout the official sphere, and will be copied by the media of necessity.

We have just been through a decade of commemorations which has been difficult because it opens many wounds that would be best consigned to history, but others keep opening those wounds.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120833926#Comment_120833926

The two governments have had more than a chance to ensure democracy happens.

At any point they could have stopped the abuse of the Petition Of Concern and it's abuse to block agreements already made and the to block the wishes of a majority of the Executive.

The fear, particularly in successive Irish governments, of calling out this activity has emboldened the undemocratic.

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120833926#Comment_120833926

"Even if both both celebrate it"

This is ultimately why it is a failed jurisdiction. Jurisdictions really only work when the jurdicition is set up for one nation of people who have unity. I know your ideology tries it best here to convince people that NI are one unified nation of people but as your quote above shows you're well aware you are talking shite by trying to convince people here that people from NI are unified.

Perhaps if the jurdicition had equality from day one between nationlists and unionists the troubles would have been avoided and the jurisdiction wouldn't have been a failure. But unfortunately it didn't and even today with the blocking of the irish language act by unionists despite other parts of the UK having their native language recognised shows even today the place is struggling with equality.

The brand "Northern Ireland" was invented in the first place for no nation of unified people and has toxic history so i think it has to go. Even if a UI is decided to be fedral so unionists have a better say in part we need new boundary lines that dont have the toxic brand NI init.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120832921#Comment_120832921

I see black paddy has made his way to a bonfire. He doesn’t seem as offended as you francie.

https://twitter.com/alanlaw/status/1678504123405041666?s=46&t=Dm5z7nnjBfmCx_hQG78v0g

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120837733#Comment_120837733

I wouldn't drag the thread off topic with all the instances of sectarianism and bigotry appearing on these bonfires. Anyone who stays up to speed would know the utter hypocrisy of those claiming these things aren't in many ways toxic and need to be gone.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120838036#Comment_120838036

Apart from one incident of burning a poster of Leo (and of course the ecological issues), I haven't seen much yet in the way of toxic culture around this year's bonfires. What happened the idea of everyone being allowed to commemorate their own? Once again, Francie's "principles" only apply to one side.

I certainly don't find the burning of effigies anyway near as chilling as whiteshirts marching in formation at a funeral.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120838235#Comment_120838235

Again. You clearly aren't up to speed.

Who is being commemorated here blanch? Are they 'commemorating with respect' which is what I advocate for. (Of course you deliberately omit what has been said to suit your narrative. Never gets old)

https://twitter.com/piarais91/status/1678772196158894080

The above is not the only one either.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120838299#Comment_120838299

That makes two, but that doesn't look like anyone.

Commemorating with respect does not include whiteshirts marching in formation alongside a hearse. That is intimidatory, far more so than children around a bonfire.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120838299#Comment_120838299

There is a decreasing number of unacceptable bonfires and this is one of the few. I know the few will be circulated ad nauseam. In fairness there are loyalists doing the same with the week of crowd trouble and stabbings in the GAA. It misrepresents GAA in the same way as you are misrepresenting bonfires.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120838401#Comment_120838401

Where is the data on this reduction? You were talking to your mates is not ‘data’ by the way.

We were told Moygashel was ‘different’ but of course they couldn’t resist in the end.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120838348#Comment_120838348

I don’t particularly like it but if the organisation is engaged in exclusively peaceful means then I have no issue. The BA are off the streets, I have no issue with them being commemorated either as long as it is respectful.

Commemoration of members of groups who have active paramilitary’s who are threatening violence I do have issue with.

FrancieBrady

Coming in fast and furious now,

https://twitter.com/beltel/status/1678837106339196936?s=46&t=MHLdqDzwJDAPD_LQ3WhyzQ

Are you less sectarian if you pretend you aren’t until the last minute?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120838873#Comment_120838873

Francie, there are hundreds of fires and I think you now have 4 that are a problem. You might get up to 5% before the nights.

are you ok with the 95% that don’t have effigies etc on them?? If not then I’m not sure what point you are making.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120838999#Comment_120838999

Where is the data that 95% of these are not toxic expressions of hate?

lurleen lumpkin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120838749#Comment_120838749

The more canny ones wait til later to put effigies/hateful stuff up. Is it a case of fewer incidents of effigies etc or just attendees are more aware of the pushback and aren't posting photos?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120839058#Comment_120839058

I agree. There is pretence going on here.

FrancieBrady

Appearing all over the place, big or small bonfires. Not a leg to stand on claiming this is minor.

https://twitter.com/armaghfans1889/status/1678863450695426050?s=46&t=MHLdqDzwJDAPD_LQ3WhyzQ

lurleen lumpkin

A few more

lurleen lumpkin

Not sure what they've edited out of the top one. Bottom one is Clonduff Rocket Team

lurleen lumpkin

'Kids bonfire'

maccored

kill all taigs bullshit again. year after year, same thing. year after year, same apologists.

Fionn1952

A great example of what we discussed this time last year; I see the Avoniel bonfire was being shared on Twitter as an example of a respectful bonfire, no flags in sight. A few hours later, it was adorned with tricolours and APNI election posters.

Same thing with Kilcooley in Bangor, lots of photos early in the day boasting about there not being a flag in sight.....a few hours later a video pops up of Down's resident dimwit Bryson standing in front of it burning with a tricolour on the top, defending it as an act of political protest.

Examples of effigies and flags being burned in Drumahoe, Dungannon, Carrickfergus, heaps of different fires around Belfast.

A man seriously injured in Newtownards from a fall from a fire draped top to ground in a Tricolour.

Chief, 'spokesman' for the Craigyhill Bonfire driving around in a hundred grand McLaren sports car though, so the window cleaning business is clearly lucrative

One positive is that we're seeing some real leadership from Doug Beattie who is unequivocally condemning the burning of flags and effigies rather than trying to pretend it has gone away or is limited to only one or two fires or only limited to Belfast and everywhere else is sunshine and rainbows.

I stand by my comments that 11th Night/12th July celebrations can absolutely be a positive part of our culture in a United Ireland, but boasts of the progress made in moving it on from an anti-Irish celebration are greatly overstated. We're seeing more media-savvy attempts to wait until none of themmuns are about to add the flags and effigies rather than the practice going away.

FrancieBrady

If this 'culture' is to be welcomed in a UI then I think Chris Donnelly's recomendation will have to come to pass.

He insists that there has to be a regulatory framework (similar to the Parades Commission) to empower local leaders to stamp out the sectarian and dangerous and environmental damaging behaviour.

downcow

As predicted, the same few fires being circulated ad nauseam. Everyone of the many hundreds of fires gets posted on social media. Why are we only getting the same few as every year posted on here and circulating on nationalist social media. It’s really quite sad that the hatred and jealousy for our culture is so great that many cannot acknowledge the huge strides forward.

and let’s keep the burning of flags in perspective. It happens the world over that people burn flags of countries they feel threatened by or that poke their noses into their country. Palestinians but Israel flags, Middle East burns usa flags. It’s hardly surprising that young unionists occasionally burn Irish flags. As blanch said it would be worse if the were attending paramilitary gatherings like Michelle.

this is typical of what is happening and what’s interesting is the widespread affirming of no flags by unionists across trwitter

https://twitter.com/matthew24dillon/status/1678783501011648512?s=46&t=B7SNgqZHuFeOltI4vRL4ng

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120839058#Comment_120839058

Here’s the best admission yet that republicans are finding it harder and harder to get any significant number of fires with flags. They are now claiming the flags are put on just before lighting and photos are banned. Come on now

….and of course they are digging into their library of pics from previous years

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120840306#Comment_120840306

'Why'?

Because it is not acceptable downcow.

Your own radio service BBC Radio Ulster is discussing this now, not even Gregory Campbell is trying to minimise (like you) the extent of this activity.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120840271#Comment_120840271

Here’s the real sectarianism on display. If Chris is interested in protecting the environment then why doesn’t he comment on rich parties like sf sending the people to USA on first class flights. If he’s interested in safety why doesn’t he comment on the rich young kids taking up equestrian sports.

of course not. Let’s put the boot on working class kids gathering wood for a bonfire.

his hatred for everything unionist cannot be hidden

lurleen lumpkin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120840323#Comment_120840323

Not 'now claiming'. They were doing it when I used to go, over 20 years ago. Who is claiming photos are banned?