Cost of a United Ireland and the GFA

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120859524#Comment_120859524

They broke the uniform rule, the banners ruling and the excessive noise one.

And you still haven't linked to where the traders welcomed a band that was breaking the rules.

As I said, nobody is looking to ban the parade if you comply with the rules. The town allowed the parade on conditions that the rules were observed.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120859508#Comment_120859508

Any chance of providing the quote on that?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120859470#Comment_120859470

Saw this angle earlier today; despite my earlier questions about it, the fella looks like a gobshite and the parade members reaction is pretty understandable in this specific snippet.

That being said, parading through a largely Nationalist town with UVF banners.....you've talked about Shinners provoking reactions, a bit hypocritical to not acknowledge the same.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120859647#Comment_120859647

I appreciate your opening paragraph so I’ll try to reciprocate.

there is a question over the use of Uvf banners. Our community holds the courage of the old Uvf and the 36th etc in very deep respect. As I understand it (and I am not learned on this) bands can carry Uvf banners on strict condition it is clearly displayed that they are referring to the Uvf of 1912 and not the modern Uvf of the 70s etc.

i am not naive enough to not think that some use that loophole to try and eulogise the murderers of the modern Uvf. This is just the flip side of Mon walking in a funeral with mourners wearing black balaclavas.

the problem is how does my community remember the people ‘we’ regard as some of the bravest people who ever lived and died in their hundreds facing down facism?

maybe it’s education that’s required so as local nationalists will understand that the vast majority of people at a parade are remembering the uvf of 1912 and not 1970.

here is the flag that was on display. I can’t make it out but I am guessing the banners are naming conflicts from 100 years ago that Uvf men died in.

I don’t know the answer, but francies reminding of our history is not a solution.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120859927#Comment_120859927

I'd fully understand and would be supportive of bands marching with banners representing the 36th (despite my own opinions on WWI) Downcow.

I'm firmly of the belief that you could respect those who fought and died in WWI by flying banners of the 36th and the only reason whatsoever to fly any sort of UVF banner is to provoke.

I think it disrespects those you wish to honour by creating a controversy when the vast majority of even ardent Republicans would have no issue with a banner for the 36th.

I don't believe for a second that a single 1912 UVF banner isn't intentionally ambiguous.

I'll repeat my request for the quotes from the Nationalist traders welcoming all of the business generated again also, as it absolutely doesn't align with the experience traders in my home town have shared.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120860128#Comment_120860128

I wouldn’t disagree with you re Uvf flags. The big problem on this forum is that there are a few posters who block honest dialogue because the are waiting to twist everything that is said and it gets quoted back out of context a year later.

that said. I have never given much consideration to how Somme etc is remembered. But I will accept it would be preferable if there was a clearer distinction between the Uvf (terrorist group) and the Uvf (mass uprising) and the 36th would be one way of doing that. I am conscious that Uvf personnel joined many british regiments, but primarily the 36th.

the Uvf (terrorist group) have manipulated the situation and I think you are right. Our community and leaders should have the courage to support moves to remove Uvf flags and thereby the ambiguity.

one of the problems is that raising it in relation to a sf agitator, trying to get a band in trouble, will get no hearing.

I’ll try and find something on the ballycastle traders welcoming the twelfth

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120860128#Comment_120860128

I can’t find where I read it but here is one example

“His letter states: “It was pleasing that prior to the parade Ballycastle businesses had made it known that the parade was welcome in Ballycastle and they looked forward to hosting us. This set what everyone thought was to be the tone of the day.”

I don’t know why the link refuses to post. But it’s the Newsletter

lurleen lumpkin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120860355#Comment_120860355

Here you go 😁

https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/national/tuv-councillor-allister-kyle-believes-twelfth-of-july-incident-in-ballycastle-was-staged-and-writes-to-parades-commission-outlining-his-surprise-that-sinn-fein-mla-philip-mcguigan-wants-to-meet-with-the-public-body-about-his-4220222

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120859927#Comment_120859927

Just asking would you read a sign with "IRA 1919" different to one saying "IRA".

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120860355#Comment_120860355

You'll excuse me if I remain sceptical of an article in the Newsletter in which a TUV Councillor and Orangeman is making these claims with zero comments from anyone in said local businesses I'm sure.

I'm sure you'd take it about as seriously if I shared an article from the Andytown News in which a local Éirigi member talked about how much local Protestants loved having The Wolfe Tones.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120860908#Comment_120860908

I am not sure if the significance of Ira 1919. If the IRA joined a legitimate force fighting against Nazis and thousands died in that pursuit, then I think there is a place for their community to remember that sacrifice. Our community made a promise LWF, and there is a strong commitment to keep that promise.

Is there ‘loyalists’ using the community’s love and admiration for the bravery of the 1912 Uvf to fly under the radar with their repugnant admiration for the 1970 Uvf, yes, and I am accepting our community should take this on. It’s a valid point and I think SEFF are very well placed to address it - and would hold similar concerns I am quite sure. Watch this space.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120860128#Comment_120860128

I understand your doubt. I guess it’s like me hearing francie say that there are northern irfu fans who like the tricolour and ss.

my surprise is that you find it unusual for mixed communities , particularly traders, to be welcoming of the twelfth. I would understand that is fairly common practice Of course there are communities not welcoming but I would say that is more unusual

sf have done a good job

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120861204#Comment_120861204

Wait, are you under the impression that the UVF "joined a legitimate force fighting against Nazis"?

(The first Ulster Volunteer Force, the one aimed as subverting parliament democracy by force, was disbanded in 1919. An attempt to revive it in 1920 was not successful. The second Ulster Volunteer Force, the terrorist one, wasn't founded until 1965. Neither outfit played any role at all in fighting against Nazis.)

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120861207#Comment_120861207

I never said anything about people 'liking' the tricolour or the soldier's song.

You are, as usual,twisting again.

There are many people who don't like either from here and NI. I have no love for flags and anthems myself.

I said that there is no issue with the tricolour or the anthem as supporters and players have no issues supporting or playing for Ireland.

Your claims about traders have turned out not to be exactly what you claimed them to be either, quelle suprise.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120861207#Comment_120861207

As I said, I can see pubs/takeaways welcoming it. Other retailers not so much.

It isn't a criticism of the 12th in this case, but rather the nature of this kind of event. Much like St Patrick's Day, parading and (in the majority of cases) having a few drinks doesn't lend itself to picking up the groceries or going shopping for a new coat. I've no doubt that the parade leads to a massive footfall in the area, I'm not convinced that footfall leads to a substantial increase in turnover for retailers who aren't selling food or drinks.

In fact many who would have wished to do those things would leave it until another day, not as a commentary on the 12th, but because they couldn't be arsed with the crowds.

On the other point, there absolutely are Northern IRFU fans who like SS and the Tricolour. Rugby isn't the exclusive domain of the PUL community. If the claim was that there were people from your community who like it, I'd agree that it's rubbish, but you're doing that thing where you forget that half of the North aren't from the PUL community, and a substantial part of the populace views the Tricolour as their flag and SS as their anthem. I'm deliberately avoiding going down the rabbit hole by sharing my own opinion on the matter and just commenting on the statement that there are Northern IRFU fans who like it.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120861267#Comment_120861267

Absolutely. My mistake. I meant northern unionist irfu fans.

and I see he’s at it again claiming that northern unionist irfu fans have no issue with the tricolour and ss. It is so ridiculous I am not even going to respond to it. Everyone knows the reality.

I have put much energy into trying to get gstk dropped from ni matches. I could do a francie and say that it’s no issue with ni nationalist supporters because they don’t complain. I am not that naive

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120861213#Comment_120861213

Slightly clumsy early morning typing - but I think you know what I meant. We need to focus on learning from eachother, rather that gotcha over typos

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120861301#Comment_120861301

I'd know a few who are pretty nonplussed about the Tricolour flying and SS being sang in Dublin, zero who actively like it and quite a lot who dislike it but not enough to kick up a fuss so to speak.

Pretending there is in any way strong support for it among Northern Unionist IRFU fans would be pretty ridiculous alright, but I don't think that is what Francie is doing. I think (and perhaps you could clarify yourself @FrancieBrady) he is trying to make a point that it isn't that big of a deal because there isn't an actively outraged cohort directly involved with Ulster rugby. I'd disagree with this take as well, but I don't think it's the same as the suggestion that Northern Unionists are actively enthusiastic about the Tricolour or SS.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120861301#Comment_120861301

You claim to know people who have issues.

The point that annoys you is they are not big enough issues to prevent them playing or supporting their team.

I don't like many things about many of the sports played here, town, county and country, BUT I support my town, county and country teams.

There have been many bitter attempts to cause division in Irish rugby by some, who hate that they have gotten respect and inclusion right, those attempts have failed, miserably. There are some who do it because they don't want efforts like that to be successful for their own reasons, probably because it is a template for what can happen in a UI.

Are you one of those people, is the question you need to ask yourself.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120861319#Comment_120861319

The northern Unionist cohort were included by the protocols that were introduced with Ireland's Call and the flag.

That was enough to make them feel it was their team.

That much is demonstratively the case.

If it was that big an issue they wouldn't play or support the team or association. Compare to the choices made in soccer.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120861318#Comment_120861318

There's a point. There's a tradition of glorifying the UVF, seeing their actions as being, morally if not actually, on a par with fighting Nazis, and it's immersion in that tradition which likely explains your slip. In actuality the UVF was an organisation that threatened to start a civil war to overthrow parliamentary rule, for basically sectarian reasons, and this is perhaps not something which should be simplistically celebrated. I don't see that this rather ugly stain on history is in any way erased by UVF members having fought in the Great War. The Great War was not a moral crusade on a par with the fight against Naziism.

Tl;dr: Unionism could benefit from a more critical engagement with its own history.

(So could nationalism, you will unhesitatingly reply. To which I would say, I think the nationalist tradition has done rather more in this regard than the unionist tradition has done.)

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120861333#Comment_120861333

There's a whole heap of runway between, 'I don't have a problem with it' and, 'I'm so outraged by this I'm willing to substantially impact my career by refusing an international call up', Francie.

I also personally know a few fans from the Unionist side of things who only attend away games due to the flags/anthems issue in Dublin, and another few who would prefer they didn't face the issue but don't feel strongly enough about it to not attend.

It also ignores that there very well may be a notable cohort of fans who have done exactly what you're talking about and stayed away and don't support the team because of this issue.

Total ostrich-like head in the sand act to take a topic that clearly exists in shades of grey and pretend it is so black and white.

Soccer is clearly different in that a choice exists to be made that isn't just, 'like it or don't follow the sport' with the NI/ROI split in the soccer.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120861333#Comment_120861333

Nonsense. Middle class grammar school unionists always felt part of the team and played for it willingly. Irelands call did not have to be introduced to do that. But the playing of ss and the flag have the same affect as the playing of gstk at ni matches. It makes it a cold house.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120861347#Comment_120861347

The fact is these 1912 UVF flags were invented to get around the Terrorist Act 2006.

They are fooling nobody in their intent.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120861370#Comment_120861370

Anyone can see that is nonsense.

There is no comparison to the soccer setup.

GSTQ/K was never the anthem of NI. It is the anthem of the UK though. Teams at representive level use their country anthems Eng/Wales/Scot etc.

And as you have been told, GB/UK are not a registered team in either soccer or rugby.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120861347#Comment_120861347

I was with you up to the last sentence.

I know of no other rewriting of history quite as big as that being attempted by sf. When you have kids across Ireland singing oh ah up the ra, then I think you have a massive work to do.

it is extremely rare, but not unknown, to hear young unionists chanting U U UVF. I only heard of one case in the last few years. It was at a band parade the week that the Irish national team had been chanting up the ra in their changing room, and it had been a reaction.

the unionist community was horrified and immediate action and education took place to ensure it wouldn’t happen again.

so while the masses of your young people think it is appropriate to sing the praises of a sectarian killing machine, that tortured, slaughtered children, raped, abused and robbed banks, don’t be getting too complacent on your communities historical understandings.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120861383#Comment_120861383

Again b&w francie. I have openly accepted some are using this loophole.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120861402#Comment_120861402

'masses'.

😁

This from somebody whose community go on several months of a triumphalist and toxic celebration yearly.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120861410#Comment_120861410

I was referencing those hanging and waving this flag.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120861395#Comment_120861395

Francie please try to take the blinkers off. This is complex. I can argue why gstk is the appropriate anthem for ni, but I don’t and I want it removed.

ss is not the anthem of the island, which the irfu claim to represent. It’s the anthem of one region/country.

can you really not see that

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120861422#Comment_120861422

I can argue why gstk is the appropriate anthem for ni

No you can't, it isn't and never will be the anthem of NI.

The IRFU agreed with all it's clubs and members the protocols around flags and anthems. You need to get your head around what people can achieve via agreements and inclusiveness, because it has worked fantasticlly for the IRFU