Choosing more ethical meat.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120040540#Comment_120040540

Yeah I kinda agree with you. I'd be reducing meat consumption (if I can get the missus onboard) mostly for environmental and health reasons

But it would be nice if I could buy meat knowing that the animal hasn't spent it's life in abject misery

I understand the meat industry is very competitive, but I don't think that's fair justification for some of the treatment you see, especially for chickens. I think a lot of farmers would prefer to treat animals better if they could still turn a profit

I'd like to see more done at the EU level to improve animal welfare. If they did it for the whole bloc then it would effectively some of the intensive farming practices across Europe

Gloomtastic!

I keep thinking that rabbit could be farmed fairly ethically and not too intensively. Am I wrong?

Alun

The Romans used to farm them, that's how they ended up in Britain and presumably Ireland. There's evidence that people farmed them quite extensively after the Romans left in the form of stone built warrens and houses where the warreners lived on Dartmoor in SW England.

magicbastarder

hedgehogs are probably not 'native' to ireland, i think the theory is the normans introduced them as a food source.

Gloomtastic!

You also have pigeon lofts in the sides of old buildings for a mid-winter meat fest. They’d be pretty free range.

El Tarangu

Pork is definitely the worst - a common farming practice is to cut pigs' tails off, as they find the conditions of their captivity so stressful that they bite and tear one anothers' tails off otherwise.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120037374#Comment_120037374

I am curious ,if anyone knows, what proportion of a typical Irish cow's diet is grass, in the end - I presume that in winter their grass diet would be supplemented with imported feed (typically shipped from halfway around the world, possibly grown on some cleared rainforest).

‘Ireland imports around 80 percent of its animal feed, food and beverage needs.’

https://www.export.gov/apex/article2?id=Ireland-Agricultural-Sectors

Gloomtastic!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120048535#Comment_120048535

Farmers cut grass during the summer and preserve it by drying it and making hay or adding molasses and making sillage. They then feed them to their livestock during the winter months.

Black Sheep

Speaking of ethical meats, I never had wallabie from Lambay Island until last year.

They were introduced to the island a few decades ago and for population control purposes they have to be reduced every now and again.

They're on the menu at Liath in Blackrock.

A bit like rabbit / deer.

I don't know what the amount of meat acquired is, could explain why its not anywhere else as far as I know.

https://www.thejournal.ie/wallabies-lambay-island-2-3516673-Jul2017/

I think in the coming decades the animal welfare issue will indirectly be impacted by vastly rising costs associated with climate change and policies related to that.

Meat and eggs are going to become much more expensive.

From an animal welfare perspective this isn't necessarily good as smaller producers and abattoirs are already struggling with costs and in some places they are already being subsidised.

I wouldn't like to see a scenario where only industrial operations can survive. I hope high welfare, high cost business models are still worth it.

I could be way off, guess we will see.

magicbastarder

Isn't all meat production in Ireland subsidised? All meat farming is AFAIK.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120048881#Comment_120048881

I think I remember it (agriculture) being similar to what it costs to keep the justice system afloat annually which is around €2 billion (from memory and could be outdated now).

I think most Irish people would also be surprised with how much meat we import to consume and how much we export to wealthier countries.

Gael23

They still suffer the same horrific death no matter how they are reared

Black Sheep

Fair, I should have said 'subsidised to an even greater extent'.

Deub

I understand the concept of not eating meat due to animal welfare and I think farming style from 60+ years ago was ok where one farm could raise few animals of everything (chicken, pigs, cows, sheep, etc) most of them had a better life but it is not cost effective now unless you can pay 3-4 times more.

What I don’t understand yet is why being vegetarian is better for the planet. By not eating meat, you need to eat specific vegetables/grains to find the minerals/vitamins you need. Most of them are not grown in Ireland. And like someone said above for animal feed, we have a lot vegetables coming from far away where they use a lot of fertilisers and clear forest to expand. I would think that eating meat grown in Ireland is less worse for the planet than importing these vegetables/grains.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120049011#Comment_120049011

You should look in to how much meat and poultry Ireland actually import. It’s huge amounts. Most people would struggle to believe it.

People are eating imported meat daily and have no idea. The Irish public just presume they are always eating Irish produce. Not true at all.

Gloomtastic!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120049011#Comment_120049011

I always think of India when this argument is raised. They’re able to feed most of their population because the vast majority are vegetarian. Or am I wrong?

Deub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120049051#Comment_120049051

I agree on imported meat as it has maybe even more impact than vegetables coming from the same area (land cleared, transport, etc) and you have to add methane as well.

Deub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120049079#Comment_120049079

They are in second position worldwide for fertiliser consumption. If you search, you will see reports on how the land is degraded dut to excessive usage.

We can’t really know the impact (or not) on their life expectancy from a mostly meat free diet because of difference of healthcare, etc

I know that you can replace meat by other ingredients but if they can’t be produced in Ireland, what is the point? (and I am referring to the concept of not eating meat because it is better for the planet)

whomadewho

Wild venison. Aldi, lidl, and dunnes sell it. It is sold in streaks, roasts and sauages. It is as lean a meat you will find.

screamer

Chickens and pigs I think live pretty miserable lives in big commercial farms. Cattle though generally are out roaming around in herds, they do get out into sheds in winter mainly for their own welfare, some can be out wintered but most aren’t. I dunno, have you spent any time on a farm or do you know a farmer? That’s really the only way to really know if your view of ethical is borne out or not. We keep a small beef herd, on very unspoilt land, they are a bunch of ejits, live roaming the bogs eating all sorts of things, panned out in the sunshine in summer and in warm straw beds in winter (we don’t do slatted sheds). They are fed to the best, they get any care and attention needed, if they’re bought in as babies they are hand reared. We don’t finish them out to factory but I do know that that’s where they’ll end up, and to be honest, I’ve seen humans suffer longer more painful deaths than the cattle in slaughter houses. We get the local butcher to kill out one for us every year and I can tell you one thing, you won’t find meat like it in any supermarket. Each to their own, I don’t judge anyone, but wanted to give you another insight into it.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120049011#Comment_120049011

in general, it's fairly simple - growing a plant and feeding it to an animal vastly increases the system losses involved. taken on purely energy content; if 1000 calories goes into feeding an animal, only a small fraction of the calorific content will make it into the meat; you lose energy to the animal growing, moving, staying warm, etc., and to the bits of the animal you can't eat. but you could potentially feed those 1000 calories directly to a person.

in 2018, the average beef output per hectare per year in ireland was 455kg (https://www.icbf.com/?p=8469); i'm comparing apples with oranges a bit here, but a site in england suitable for growing hazelnuts can expect up to 4,000kg of hazelnuts per Ha, per annum (http://www.calu.bangor.ac.uk/Technical%20leaflets/050402Cobnutsandwalnuts.pdf)

so nearly 10 times the weight, and hazelnuts are approx 2.5x more energy dense per kg, so that good site in england can produce over 20 times as many calories from a Ha of land, than irish beef producers produce on average. i'm well aware that i'm picking a 'good' site in england, comparing it to the national average here, so a spectrum of the quality of the land, but the factor of greater than 20 in that comparison is interesting.

of course it's not as simple as that - humans have evolved to require dietary compounds most plants won't produce, but eggs would contain a lot of these.

one of the reasons irish agriculture is so beef-focussed is that one crop we're good at growing in ireland is grass; and the nature of modern agriculture is that you specialise. grow what you're better at growing than other countries are, and don't worry about diversity, because you trade your beef for the tomatoes grown elsewhere.

Escapees

A recently turned vegan here, so my post will probably rub folk up the wrong way. I turned vegan for a number of reasons... But the main one, and the one I usually hold back from telling folk, is because I know that eating meat in this day and age is plain and simply unethical.

Sure, it's what has always been done traditionally going back to caveman days, but so were a lot of other practices that we've stopped doing as we advanced. The reality now is that we can very easily get our nutrition from plant food alone. And despite all the misinformation out there, particularly from groups associated with the meat sector and with vested interests, a diet of plant food is clearly better for the environment than the wasteful and inefficient alternative of growing plants to rear animals on before slaughter for their meat.

If anyone is genuinely interested in the facts then there are lots of resources out there. The problem is most people prefer to keep blinkered about them and the whole traditional meat, fish and dairy industry supports this and is more than happy with the status quo.

But there seems to be a big shift happening. Just look at the increase in popularity of plant milk over the last few years. It might not be for ethical reasons but one interesting thing that's come about is that plant milk can now be cheaper than dairy milk. I see the whole meat sector going this way. The cost of meat and dairy production will rise so much that the associated products will become luxury items outside of most people's budget compared to plant based alternatives. That, coupled with the reality that no matter how ethically anyone trys to produce meat or it's derivatives, it just fundamentally isn't ethical anymore to begin with.

I don't mean to offend anyone here, but I have yet to hear of someone eating their well-reared pet dog for Christmas or at the end of its life.

Black Sheep

I don't think anyone will be offended, plant based eating is so mainstream at this point.

Strict veganism won't be for everyone however.

El Tarangu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120048750#Comment_120048750

From my limited reading on the topic, this would not represent a typical case - a grass-fed cow would need to have its diet supplemented with a higher-protein foodstuff (typically imported soy or corn).

I am curious, if anyone knows, what proportion of a typical cow' calories would come from imported feed - is it 10%, or 50%, or what would it be?

Dial Hard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120049332#Comment_120049332

Stan Wright (former Leinster player) ate his dog when it died. So there you go, you've heard of one now...

Black Sheep

Peter Singer, who I mentioned earlier, surprised a BBC interviewer once by saying he would eat lab grown meat if it became good quality enough. In a segment where he was providing a vegan perspective. He went even further and said in principle he had no problem with eating roadkill in some circumstances.

People sometimes forget that vegetarianism or veganism is not about an absolute objection to eating meat, if it's an animal welfare based argument it's about the intentional element.

The water is muddier when other arguments are advanced, related to climate or health.

For me personally I'm quite convinced by animal welfare arguments, I'm pretty convinced climate arguments hold some water and I'm not so convinced by health arguments.

Dave_The_Sheep

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120049819#Comment_120049819

"When it died" isn't quite how I'd describe that, it's correct but doesn't really contain the whole story (if indeed that story is true).

AndrewJRenko

Any experts on the ethics of Irish seafood - I'm thinking about prawns, crab, scallops and fish such as salmon or hake?

Great thread btw, thanks for all contributions.

AyeGer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120049332#Comment_120049332

Im not offended, it’s an honourable position to take and many are moving in that direction. I’m at the stage where I am not ready to give up meat but would like if the animals I eat don’t live a miserable existence throughout their lives. Yes they will face the slaughterhouse at the end of their life and that won’t be pleasant, but many humans will face a pretty grim end of life too. I’m not saying that is the perfect solution, far from it but it probably the best solution for those who want to continue to eat meat.

I am willing to pay a higher price for meat from animals that have had a decent existence such as those mentioned above by screamer.

AyeGer

A relative of mine was part of a group that raised pigs in England, they would each take turns feeding the pigs. The pigs spent their time in a field as they were reared. I don’t know the full details but they were then brought to a abattoir and the meat was divided out amongst the group. It was in southern England where the weather was good so I’m not sure how it would work in Ireland.