The greatest SIMI lie - and we believe them

deravarra

We all know how expensive cars are in this country, compared to our closest neighbours. The SIMI keep rattling on about how taxation is crippling the motorist, and is responsible for the inflated price of the new cars. However, that's a lie.

The problem we find is that there can be a difference in models between the UK and Ireland, and the SIMI will point out that we are not comparing like for like - and in general that may be somewhat true. However, there are occasions where we can directly compare like for like and see how the Irish Tax (VAT and VRT) affects the price you should be paying, and the price the car retails for on the forecourt.

VW ID 4 Style Pro Performance. UK Base Price (VAT excluded) £41088. Using XE.com, I get a euro equivalent of €46,508. Add the VAT and VRT at 23% and 7% respectively and that gives a total of €61209.

VW ID 4 Style Pro Performance, adding the €1500 for the Assistance Plus Package (Which comes as standard on the UK model) and the price comes to €65060, which exclude dealer charges.

Skoda Enyaq IV60 - £38970 including UK VAT @ 21%. Take base price (38970 minus VAT), then add Irish VAT and VRT and convert to Euro = €47951

Skoda Enyaq IV60 - €51910

Ford Mustang Mach E Select - £50830 including UK @ 21%. Take base price, then add Irish VAT and VRT and convert to Euro = €62540

Ford Mustang Mach E select - €67666

The question is - which one of the following are pocketing the difference between what you should be charged and what you are charged: Dealer or Importer/Distributer?

User1998

Why are you only giving examples of electric cars which have grants and low VRT?

Why not give us some examples of petrol/diesel models which can have up to 40% VRT?

Hellrazer

In my opinion ( and from experience) its the Importer / Distributor thats ramping up prices.

Ireland is such a small market for most manufacturers that they have to add on an "Irish Tax" to cover their costs. Otherwise it just isnt feasible to make money on new sales unless you have huge volumes which we dont have over here. I also get what you are saying regarding the specs we get over here but thats because of the obsession with the number plate and having the latest reg - in other words we`ll buy any old shite to show the neighbours that we have a new car.

Its a very small minority that actually look at the specs they are buying unless the buyer is a bit of an car head and knows what they want.

Ive seen cost prices to dealers and being completely honest dealers might make €500 euros per new sale if they are lucky. The money is in the trade in and the selling price for that.

We all see ads for a particular car that lets just say is selling privately for 10k - the trade in price might get you 7k if you are doing very well on a particular day. Dealer will tell you its going to cost X to resell it - valet, service , warranty etc but in reality the spend on that trade in could be from 500 - 1000 euros. Retali it for 11k and the dealer has made 3k profit.

One good example was I was at the launch of the new Tipo a good few years back the whole spiel from the distributor was that they were targetting Focus and Golf sales and that it would be priced to compete. And while the Tipo is a decent car they got the pricing completely wrong. It was selling for 3-4k above the price of teh focus and golf and realistically sold feck all.

And before anyone says its a Fiat and thats what affected the sales of - it wasnt it was the pricing model - the manufacturers / distributors got greedy.

Look at the other side of that when I was at a meeting with another brand and they were saying they had no worries about the Dacia being launched and that they wouldnt sell over here - And then Dacia sold out their first 1000 allocation in a few months. You could buy a new Dacia for 15k. They really shook up that distributor that I was that meeting with.

Its an Irish thing I feel - we`ll buy any old crap to prove a point (new car and reg)and the distributors know this so bring in the lowest spec models and up their margin on them - why bring in high spec models when teh general public really isnt interested in them.

Irish people need to start voting with their feet and buying in the UK more - oh sorry they tried that and teh government made it harder to do that now.

A fair few of my customers went to the UK and bought new cars that were a good deal cheaper than over here. The new HRV is a good example - 2 people I know bought in the UK - I still dont think they have been released here yet. New Civic will be an interesting one - £30,000 sterling - should be €40,000 ish euros - thats going to be a 50k car here by the time the distributors adds on the "Irish Tax" and thats the base model.

Flinty997

Interesting insight into the market.

The high spec models are poor bang for buck new. More so in Ireland because they are even rarer and thus people inflate the price even more. Anyone looking for deal on them will go used or import themselves.

EVs have a double whammy of even the base models being in short supply, and used and imports also being in short supply. So your playing a premium for all that. If anyone's going to look to make a bit of extra money premium EVs market is the place to do it.

deravarra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120043121#Comment_120043121

Because the market is being pushed towards EV's.

Perhaps you can do your own homework and provide the examples of petrol and diesel cars?

deravarra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120043134#Comment_120043134

I agree with most of what you said - but it really smacks of hypocrisy when the SIMI go cap in hand begging the government for supports during their leaner times, and they have no qualms in banging on a few extra grand on a new car.

I always have to smirk a little when it comes to the "small market" theory. That does not wash with me, since there are many other small markets in mainland Europe and they are not having the same issues.

Most large companies with a global presence have treated the UK and Ireland as being the same market - except when it comes to pricing ... then they will take out that "small market" ticket and use it to slap a few extra quid on the price of whatever they sell.

johnb25

I always heard the reason for lower specs here was that higher VRT was being imposed on higher specs.

Also I found the UK motorist to be at least as obsessed with the reg as the Irish motorist.

The two cars I have bought since moving back have been second hand UK imports, partly due to the specs.

Flinty997

I think in England motoring is cheaper so people change their cars more often. Because they can.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120043175#Comment_120043175

Simi sole purpose is to advocate for the industry not the consumer.

I've no idea what value (if any) Simi add for someone in the industry like a dealer. Or anyone for that matter.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120043121#Comment_120043121

Maybe because of the zero / minimal VRT on EVs its easier to compare pre grant Irish and UK prices directly. VRT has always massively distorted Irish car prices and specs. In fact Irish EVs up to €60k should be far cheaper to buy here because of our generous €5k grant, the UK having gotten rid of their grant, but of course this is being absorbed also by the industry while still bleating on about the small market costs.

With EV VRT exemptions it's far easier for dealers to sell higher specced models. Even basic safety features are hit with both VRT and VAT making high specced ICEs excessively expensive. Could that be a contributory reason why dealers are only selling top spec EVs here at present?

Back in 2009 I imported a 2008 diesel smax at £15k, something over €15.5 as exchange rate was near parity at the time. Great bargain until Revenue slapped a €7k VRT levy on it, nearly 50% of purchase price. I mentioned this to UK dealer and he couldn't believe what we were prepared to pay for cars over here.

R.O.R

VW ID4 Life Edition 77KWh Pro Performance - UK ex. VAT base price is £37,675

Using xe.com £37,675 becomes €42,584.47

VW ID.4 LIFE 77kWh 204HP - IE ex. VAT / ex. VRT base price is €43,262.

It does look like the UK model has a reversing camera and alarm that the Irish model doesn't have (and can't be added), but the price difference is nowhere near the amount in the OP and could easily swing the other way if there's a change in the exchange rate.

User1998

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120043736#Comment_120043736

And in addition to this, there are certain makes/models that are higher spec in Ireland than they are the UK.

I’m going back a few years but take the VW Polo for example, Irish Trendlines came with central locking and full size radios whereas UK S models did not. Passat’s were higher spec in Ireland too and so were Golfs.

And a lot of cars with higher VRT are actually cheaper here pre VAT/VRT than they are in the UK so that they can actually be sold at a reasonable price

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120043134#Comment_120043134

Irish people need to start voting with their feet and buying in the UK more - oh sorry they tried that and teh government made it harder to do that now.

The UK leaving the common market is to blame for the increased cost of imports, not just cars, its nothing to do with our government.

The UK had a car industry so it was worth their while to keep cars cheaper so that people changed regularly and kept others in work. Every new car bought in Ireland takes money out of the country and as we never had a car industry to subsidise why wouldn't we put high taxes on a luxury purchase?

hoodie6029

Joining the EEC in the the 70’s was our big chance to get decent car prices here. Import duty was abolished upon joining. That had protected dealers here since independence. The Government of the day just renamed it VRT.

If large dealer groups from the UK had been able to enter the Irish market in the 70’s we would’ve had some hope. Economies of scale etc.

I know Denmark also has exorbitant cars prices so we are not unique.

Hellrazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120043175#Comment_120043175

The SIMI dont get involved with pricing. The "supports" are usually in the way of tax reductions etc which the distributors usually dont pass on to the consumer.

As for the "small market" theory - I feel that its the number 1 reason we are shafted. There are only 4 countries in Europe that are RHD. Ireland, The UK, Malta and Cyprus.

Out of those 3 of the markets are tiny Ireland, Malta and Cyprus - Malta new sales are miniscule . same in Cyprus. Ireland does around 100k sales year on average. The UK is 1.5 million. Malta and cyprus get the **** specs aswell . A distributor isnt going to bring in high spec models for sales so low.

"Smaller markets" in the EU arent affected as much because they are LHD- A lot more cars are manufactured for the LHD markets so prices are lower.

Also the distributors that tried to lump Ireland with the UK always seemed to me to roll back on that after a few years . We are completely different markets and standards that work for a brand selling a hundred thousand cars versus a few thousand dont seem to follow through and those manufacturers usually either sell the distributorship to a third party or open a branch themselves..Ford UK- 120k sales for 2022 v Ford Ireland 5057.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120043887#Comment_120043887

Cars aren't cheap in the UK (see how quickly pulled the EV grant), it's just that they are targeted for exorbitant taxes. In contrast private cars have always been heavily taxed in this country and the temporary blip in this policy to be perceived as green cheer leaders will soon revert to type. I'm sure there are people currently working OT to come up with the next innovation in car tax nomenclature. Must continue to look the gift horse in the mouth.

Hellrazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120043887#Comment_120043887

Fair enough - it was teh VAT and custom charges treating the UK as a third country that made it more expensive to bring in UK imports. However its still happening and is still cheaper if you do your homework.

You could argue that anything thats imported takes money out of the country - not just cars. But Id probably consider a car an essential purchase rather than a luxury when you see how bad our public transport system really is.

User1998

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120043887#Comment_120043887

To be fair VRT has been increasing year on year, particularly with the recent addition of Nox and WLTP Co2 which can add thousands to a used car. So its not just Brexit causing inflated used prices

colm_mcm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120043736#Comment_120043736

Does the Irish price include a grant of €5k taken off it?

mikeecho

I remember back in the 90's , UK buyers came to the ROI to buy brand new cars, and immediately export them.

They could be seen on the ferrys sporting "ZZ" plates.

The reason, .. the pre tax price of the car was cheaper here than in the UK.

So they bought here, claimed all the tax back, and just paid VAT in the UK .

deravarra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120043736#Comment_120043736

The price difference is big ... when the GOVERNMENT funded SEAI grant is removed

I bet ya the dealers will bang on the 5k AND more when the grant goes!

Allinall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120045644#Comment_120045644

I'd bet they won't, if people don't buy the cars.

It's an open market, so dealers will charge what they think they will get, same as any other business.

Everyone that buys a new car has a choice to; not buy that particular brand, fuel type, buy second hand, import etc. etc.

walterking

Where's the SIMI angle in this?

Allinall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120045661#Comment_120045661

In posters heads, I think.

deravarra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120045650#Comment_120045650

A bit of a smug "let them eat cake" comment. But maybe that's in my head too.

R.O.R

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120044481#Comment_120044481

My figures are before any grant is applied. Nothing I price qualifies for the grant so I completely ignore it :-)

ednwireland

Whole truck load of brand new discoveries on the ferry yesterday.

walterking

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120043167#Comment_120043167

How about you doing some homework on exchange rates.

If you did your calculations 5 weeks ago, the exchange rate was 1.16 or in August when it was 1.20.

Actually at 1.20 the net price here was lower.

And also UK vat is 20%

Frankly you have not thought this out at all.

A complete nonsense of a post

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120046621#Comment_120046621

Thats nice.

It'll keep the Land Rover dealers good and busy when they all need new engines, around April.

By the way, nobody would love the pre-tax prices of new cars to be lower than SIMI.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120048426#Comment_120048426

Does higher prices not equate to higher margins?

Casati

On the face of it your example makes it look like base prices are similar - I checked this for other models too- agreed.

However if we start looking at autotrader you can quickly see many discounts up to 20% on new VW’s, that’s before you start negotiating. Why aren’t we seeing any discounts from Irish dealers - are they making massive margin?

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120048624#Comment_120048624

Depends on the franchise arrangements with the makers and the overheads locally.

But overall, SIMI want to see volume. Volume is everything. It drives employment, investment, after-sales and ancillaries, debt servicing, the second market, you name it.

If you offered SIMI 50,000 annual sales with a higher margin or 120,000 with a tighter one, they'd take the latter any day.

FGR

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120049677#Comment_120049677

I often wonder how come this market has never had an equivalent to broadspeed, drivethedeal or carwow. With some cars there appears to be a 15% instant discount.

The UK market, even with Brexit and a weaker pound, seems to still have far better pricing.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120049860#Comment_120049860

Yes but at present supply is the key constraint in the EV market, hence higher prices mean higher margins.

deravarra

Everyone, including you, are entitled to their opinion.

Yours means nothing to me. If you didn't like the post, move on.

zg3409

Another "new" thing is dealers tagging on optional extras as no longer optional or hard to get out if such as paint protection on delivery. Some dealers for same car you can opt out, others for same car no choice. It seems some dealers are tagging on the "delivery" charge things other dealers are not. Even the base price can vary by dealer so shoo around and haggle on delivery type fees.

EVs are selling out more than they can supply so it's not a great comparison. Irish models (with kilometer as main display) may have been ordered 1-2 years ago with fixed quantities so distributers and dealers are pricing based on supply and demand. Buyer beware.

It makes sense to go to Northern Ireland for used imports as taxes to import are lower than mainland UK. However again shop around as used prices are crazy high. There is a big upsurge in Japanese imports again too for used market as mainland UK market has additional taxes.

Hellrazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120051782#Comment_120051782

And if you do go North or the UK - theres a fair few companies now changing clocks to KMs.

Recently got 4 vans changed to KMs for one company from the North and they charged me around 90 euros per van.

In other words dont get hung up on the Miles / Kilometer thing. Its usually a cheap enough fix. Only issue is some models have a digital speedo - in a lot of cases it can be changed through the dash or in a dealer.

Lewis_Benson

SIMI is a joke.

There is no motor Industry in ireland.

road_high

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120052647#Comment_120052647

We don’t assemble cars but Ireland is a big player in the components and now technology that goes into cars

mickdw

We need to get a proper handle on private individuals bringing in vat qualifying cars from UK.

It's seems to be possible and should allow for better pricing but it seems non existent at the minute.

User1998

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120053904#Comment_120053904

Its mostly just company cars and government vehicles which are VAT qualifying and the only real place to buy them are from auction houses. Generally you need to be a professional motor trader to buy from auctions in the UK

Anyway it’s still quite expensive as you have to pay auction fees, freight, 10% customs and VRT. And UK prices are inflated now too. I have access to UK auctions and when you do the sums it usually works out cheaper to just buy a similar car from a private seller here instead of a dealer

blackbox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120052647#Comment_120052647

Totally agree. Should be Society of Irish Motor Traders.

mikeecho

Simi is a lobby group for car sellers, they are not a rep body for the public.

I don't know how people don't get that.

Their interest is in protecting the car retailers.

They are not a consumer advocate.

Hellrazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120054259#Comment_120054259

Thats exactly what they are. They were never anything different.

GSBellew

The UK market is much bigger than the Irish market, each dealer also has a larger catchment area so the overhead costs of the dealer per vehicle sold is lower.

The importers are shifting more units per day / week / month / year than Irish importers, so again, the overhead cost per unit is lower.

Manufacturers in many instances subsidise the prices to get sales in the UK, they don't do that here because they are not all that interested in getting sales in Ireland because we are a tiny market. Back in the 90's and before they did subsidise prices, just to move units in what was a poorer economy, as the economy improved here and to limit threats of exports from IE to UK pre tax pricing was aligned to prevent them hurting their own income.

I've nothing to do with SIMI but I do very much work in the Motor Industry here, we do exist, from companies making electrical components, body panels, exterior trim, mechanical components right through to complete vehicles ready for road use approved through the NSAI with e24 (Ireland) approvals.

Lewis_Benson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120054259#Comment_120054259

It's just an old boys club anyhow, I've seen it first hand.

murphthesmurf

I remember when the Toyota GT86 was released, UK TV advertised at just over £26k OTR. A few months later the Toyota dealership by me had one for sale at over €43k.

Couldn't believe my eyes.

I hadn't been living here for long and laughed, thinking no one would ever buy that. But someone did.

deravarra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120068641#Comment_120068641

And the dealer told the buyer that they got an absolute bargain!

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120069029#Comment_120069029

Currency conversion and VRT would close a good chunk of that gap. Not saying there isnt a significant Irish markup also