Right to Housing Referendum

themoone

The Government is set to call a referendum on the Right for Housing.

Right to housing referendum: Recommendations due this month on wording of vote – The Irish Times

Right to housing referendum: Recommendations due this month on wording of vote – The Irish Times

In what I understand the aim is to limit Article 43 of the Consitution in favour of the Common Good, however, the Common Good is already invoked in the Consitution so I am wondering why the need for an amendment to the constitution considering the government in the past number of years have sited it as a reason for numerous legislation.

It is also interesting to note the ICHR is warning again this referendum.

A Referendum on a Right to Housing – Article 43 of the Constitution – Irish Council for Human Rights (ichr.ie)

I have also noted that over the years when Germany (especially Berlin) passes a law then Ireland seems to adopt it very shortly after. Rent Controls is an example. And I can not help but think that the legislation passed in Germany in Sept. 2021 has encouraged the government to follow suit.

https://www.dw.com/en/berliners-vote-yes-on-property-expropriation-but-what-happens-now/a-59070328

I know it is supposed to apply to large scale Landlords but are we sure that this will not trickle down to the small landlord with one or two properties? Will this extend to the old people in homes or hospitals? Germany voted to apply to large scale the wording of the Irish bill does not seem to be so specific. But feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Grolschevik

Interesting thread potential.

However, I wouldn't pay too much attention to anything the self-styled "Irish Council for Human Rights" says. It's a small, right-wing and anti-vax pressure group with an impressive but misleading name, founded by a single barrister. You can even see this confirmed in their (admittedly extensive) article on the history of this that you link to. They must have asked four or five times "so what's the real agenda here?", before basically concluding "communism!"

That said, it's a good discussion to have.

Danzy

Hard to take such a referendum serious.

Jinglejangle69

We will be mortgage free soon!!

Ah the entitled brigade will have a field day. Literally we can all say I’m entitled to a house now.

Best news of 2023!!

1874

Just skimmed over this now, coming from Darragh O'Brien (who I consider to be a complete moron),

Id be very concerned and I think everyone should be (not just homeowners).

I think Referendums/Changes to the constitution should be very carefully considered. Im not sure where the suggestion this is potentially targeted at large scale landlords comes from? or that it it couldnt then be used as a blunt instrument to make even worse knee jerk responses to future problems for FFG. Id be most concerned how it could be misused and applied to any individual owner. I suspect given FFG seem to be in bed with/invited in Vulture funds, that this will never affect vulture funds, and will only affect small landlords (which I am thankfully not one anymore).

I actually came here looking to see if there was any kind of response to something I saw elsewhere online where the moron in question was saying tax relief would be restored for white goods (must have been removed since my exit, I mean whoop de fcuking doo), do they think thats going to fix years of their screw ups.

As I was curious if the FFG conglomerate had come up with any new ideas to stop the previous and impending masse exit from the market by small landlords. The entire housing problem has been created by FFG wether they were officially in partnership together or not, rather than reducing the tax burden on small landlords or even shift some benefit their way by imposing some small taxes on vulture funds, who I think should be taxed at the same rate as small landlords and reductions only passed on if they are passed on across the board, because it seems reasonable to tax small landlords to the hilt (but vulture funds export their profits without paying anything having bought properties for cents on the euro).

I think the mulling over permitting white goods to be allowed tax relief is a smokescreen (mere breadcrumbs) but to distract small landlords while a referendum change which I hadnt heard of is seemingly on the cards.

Referendum changes concern me, because it can easily be framed in such a way that neither option is preferable (like Lisbon) so it's nearly better to not do anything, ie make no changes, because there appears to be no benefit to anyone to make changes to the constitution which will never be reversed. With their record of knee jerk legislative introductions for Rentals, I think it is appalling (but probably unsurprising) that eventually they would try change the Constitution to cover for their history of screwing up housing in this country.

Maybe I'm not wording what I want to say as well as I could, but having just seen this, I dont know what to think except that it could be worse than I think or know. FFG have a history of letting the market decide outcomes, which imo doesnt favour a beneficial outcome for any, other than a small cohort of vested interests (some wont believe that includes small landlords, but I think this will hit small landlords the worst and subsequently renters) Truly FFG is looking out for vested interests, their close pals and supporters ONLY if they think this is the correct way to fix problems with housing which they have caused by incompetence.

I believe people have a right to (affordable) housing in some way, it is just not possible with govt inaction and Council refusals to do what is needed (approve and build housing), by all means farm it out to private entities to build, maintain and manage, but keep ownership instead of giving away public land for next to nothing. Why doesnt the Govt impose taxes of some description on Vulture funds? OR Introduce legislation that forces Councils to approve planning and implementing construction of hosuing?? I think most Citizens would support that, just build housing. FFG have done sweet fcuk all in their tenure about the problem except kick the problem down the road. It would make you think their actions are intentional.

Id put nothing past FG or FF in the last 15-20 years, but they get worse and worse, its always been FFG, 2 sides of the same coin.

The Spider

Anyone who owns a house and votes in favour of this needs their head examined, it’ll remove property rights that we all have and it’s not just small landlords that could be affected, homeowners too could find themselves on the bad side of this legislation. What if you’re lucky enough to have a large garden in an area in Dublin that has now become desirable? Can the government just go and cpo the land to build a block of apartments, because y’know right to housing.

Same applies in the country what if your house is on a couple of acres but is now close to town because the town expanded out and, can they just use this to take your land and build?

What if you’re an elderly couple in a large house because your children have moved on, can you be forcibally moved to alternative accommodation because your house would suit a family?

Can it be used to ensure spare bedrooms take in lodgers?

All of the above are extreme examples, but who knows? When you vote away your rights to property everything can be on the table, not at first but over years they’ll bounce back to pointing at this legislation to force through whatever they see fit.

Everyone is obliged to vote down this nonsense to at least protect the rights of future generations, property rights have Erin enshrined in the constitution since the foundation of the state, and shouldn’t be changed just because the current government has made a mess of housing.

What are they hoping to achieve with this referendum?

Currently it would appear they can make changes to the rental market whenever they feel like it. Now are they going to start distributing other peoples property to appease some voters.

I feel its a way of them making it look like they are doing something without actually doing anything.

Unwittingly the government are doing everything within their power to slow down the provision of housing both rental and permanent and I don't see this referendum helping matters.

moceri

If Ireland provides free housing... you can be sure the Airports and Ferry ports will be blocked with people trying to get in. The old adage.. If you put enough food on the Bird table.....

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120064981#Comment_120064981

A right to housing does not mean "Free housing" surely?

The Spider

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120064996#Comment_120064996

What else could it mean? If you don’t have a house or the means to get one, then a house would have to be provided because you have a right to it, just as you have a right to unemployment support etc.

SwimClub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120064960#Comment_120064960

If it was fast tracked my guess would be to extend the eviction ban, but given it will take a while it's most likely just to be seen to have done everything possible to extend it and not get blamed for not doing so by the electorate.

I don't think they are unwittingly doing anything, they are just looking after their own political careers, that's what politicians do.

If doing the right thing means you lose your job then the incentive is not to do the right thing.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065062#Comment_120065062

No other things you've a right to are guaranteed to be free. Food, water, education, etc.

The 'right to housing' thing is window dressing to try shut up a few loud opposition TDs, the actual intent is cutting off some methods of delaying stuff through the courts really.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120064960#Comment_120064960

What are they hoping to achieve with this referendum?

I presume the only reason for this proposal from both FG & FF is to win votes from SF. This referendum has nothing to do with housing and is purely electioneering

The Spider

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065063#Comment_120065063

One thing it may do (puts on conspiracy hat) is to take away Sinn Féin’s ability to have a referendum on it if they get voted in at the next election, it’ll come down to the wording, subtly word it as a right to housing good, or subtly word it as right to housing bad?

Either way this referendum is going to happen by thi# government or the next, it’s up to the citizenry to shoot it down and make sure it doesn’t come back again

The Spider

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065071#Comment_120065071

Laws of unintended consequences, 10-20 years down the line this legislation can be rolled out and applied to anything to with housing, needs to be nipped in the bud now

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065062#Comment_120065062

Is there anything in the constitution that mentions unemployment support or otherwise?

There are plenty of things we have a right to. Doesn't make them free ....

The Spider

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065302#Comment_120065302

Well that’s maybe the point, it would specifically say that there is a right to housing in the constitution, as you’ve pointed out those other things we have rights to aren’t in the constitution (that I know of) but housing wouldbe and it would gain significant weight in any legal argument by the fact that it’s there in the constitution.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065331#Comment_120065331

There are lots of things that are specifically referenced in the constitution that aren't free..a few posters have given examples.

Just to add. I believe a referendum on this would be a complete waste of time and resources. Time and resources that should be better spent on fixing the issue rather than being all aspirational about it, as governments of the past few decades have been.

namloc1980

It'll be interesting to see the wording but I'd be very wary of such an amendment to the Bunreacht.

timmyntc

Nothing good can come of the referendum.

At best, the wording matches that of our current laws etc so that nothing really changes.

At worst, the wording will be over-reaching and the constitutional right to housing will be used in support of CPOs, bad planning decisions, indefinite eviction bans, squatting, retention for illegally constructed houses, etc. Depending on just how bad the wording is, it could open up a pandora's box of legal consequences.

SwimClub

Everyone is entitled to a house but there are not enough houses so where is this going?

The only logical conclusion is to enshrine a game of musical chairs in the constitution, to the tune of amhran na bhFiann.

The anthem will be played out over large tannoys on the streets while people file from house to house daily and if you are in a house when it stops it's yours for the night!

A proportion of people left on the street are randomly shot by a large doll robot wearing a balaclava.

I'm currently pitching the movie rights to this to Netflix as 'Sinn Fein meets Squid Game'

pauliebdub

Although the wording is important and it hasn't been stated how the constitutional change will affect our lives, the fear of unintended consequences like squatting, private property and public spaces being taken over and developed will ensure that middle ireland won't vote for it.

Senature

"Housing" is a poorly chosen term as people are interpreting it as a house. Surely the proposal is actually a right to adequate accommodation.

As said already wording is key. As a modern society, should we not aim for everyone to have somewhere to live? Many people complain about refugee's rights in Ireland, often seeing them as superceeding the rights of Irish citizens. Might this proposed legislation help to address this?

I'm no major fan of recent governments, particularly when it comes to the disaster they have all made of housing. However, it seems like anything they propose or do is seen as wrong.

SwimClub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120066015#Comment_120066015

It's more than that, it's putting that into the constitution to give it equal or stronger status to property rights.

We can agree that people should have a right to accommodation without putting a clause into the constitution, why do we need to do that?

It doesn't change anything in terms of enabling the government to spend more on providing housing etc., they can do that already.

This is being done specifically to undermine property rights or more likely as a political stunt to be seen to 'do something' to win votes.

What you need to realise is that they are not doing this to help the housing situation, they are doing it to help themselves get re-elected/to reduce cards the opposition can play to win votes. They are a bunch of cretins.

If you have a spare room (whether owning or renting), currently you have the option to take in refugees, but you don't have to because you have a choice as you have property rights that let you decide what is done with your property. If the refugees right to accommodation has equal or stronger status than your property rights and that's enshrined in the constitution you may have no choice, the government will be able to move them into your property.

We need to be very careful about changing the constitution.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120064996#Comment_120064996

Once you establish a 'right' to something, then the next step is to oblige the state that this 'right' be vindicated.

This proposal is like 'mon & apple pie' - we can all agree that it's a very nice idea. But it's surely impossible to vindicate this right in any sense that would be acceptable to most citizens.

1874

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120066015#Comment_120066015

When you say "all" you're referring to FF & FG right

Senature

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120066245#Comment_120066245

Odd clarification to seek but I'm referring to all and any parties and independents in government over the past 20 years, and all county councillors. Nobody deserves a free pass on the continual housing policy failures.

Gusser09

Everyone already has a right to a house.....except for the middle classes who pay for it.

touts

This has all the hallmarks of yet another disastrous change to the constitution that we will be lamenting and fighting to change again within 20 years.

At the very least there will be a mass exodus of small landlords from the market. You would be insane not to sell a property when the tenant might have a greater claim to it with a stroke of a pen by a populist minister. Who wants that stress.

What is needed is more houses and apartments. Spend the millions spent on this idiotic referendum on building a few hundred houses and then keep building.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120066015#Comment_120066015

"Shelter" for everyone is an aspiration and as that's a fair point that you make.

Again, I would much rather see the resources put into solving the problem than scoring politicial points on a pure BS move.

Q&A

Can someone please direct me to the part of the Constitution that is source of all our housing problems? This 100 year old wording that is now holding back the ability of the State to build or people not buy??

Show me the offending segments and then I can way up the pros and cons of the referendum. Otherwise there's just the hint of Brexit about this. Catchy phrases about taking back control and the ability to solve all our short term problems without giving any thought to what this could mean in the long term.