Roderic O’G: Transgender issues added to primary curriculum

Guess_Who

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097115#Comment_120097115

I think there are an infinite amount of genders and I think that they each are as valid and important as the next when it comes to defining what a man or a woman is.

By that I mean not at all.

Black Sheep

It would be absurd alright to suggest marriage is simply a legal fiction on a par with identifying as genderqueer, gendervoid, omnigender, genderfuck, pangender and so on....

Whether it's for you or not, marriage is an institution with a huge weight of social and legal tradition behind it.

I'd question whether the identities being generated by modern gender studies will still be in use in 50 years let alone beyond that. I guess we will see.

But yeah, sometimes as the saying goes, "the law is an ass" and I suspect that was the meaning intended.

There's always the possibility of further clarity on any law being established down the road by the courts, or outright repeal.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097189#Comment_120097189

Christ almighty I was going to say as many as there are people on the planet, but thpight youd start screaming atv me who stupid i was and i really didn't have the energy for a long off topic debate on it.

Speaking of which, why's it relevant?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097198#Comment_120097198

Whether it's for you or not, marriage is an institution with a huge weight of social and legal tradition behind it.

Whether it’s for you or not, human civilisation precedes marriage by at least a couple of millennia, and human evolution precedes civil law by at least a couple of millennia again.

Yet still Irish law persists in only recognising the institution of the Family as created through marriage, meaning that unmarried couples are not regarded in Irish law as a family, which has obvious repercussions when it comes to the protection in Irish law of any children who are born to unmarried couples.

It’s true though that there is always the possibility of clarification and bringing Irish law into line with European Human Rights law, in the same manner as was achieved with the enactment of the Gender Recognition Act. Given Scotland just passed the Gender Recognition Reform bill to allow for self-identification, I don’t imagine Ireland will be repealing the Act any time soon, particularly when all reforms suggested are about expanding the provisions of the Act so that more people are protected under it’s provisions.

Guess_Who

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097249#Comment_120097249

Because in order to claim that you are in supporter of transrecognition (The recognition that anyone can identify as their true self and be protected and accepted as such), you would have to give as much credence and education when teching "what it means to be transgender", to include people who identify as a f*ckgender/astralgender with the same sincerity as you would to people who identify as a transwoman. Otherwise you are absolutely not teaching children what being transgender means, which is what Roderic claims to want to do.

Most people who claim to be an ally to transpeople only focus on the genders that align to the two binary sexes, which makes it a nonsense and why "what it means to be trans" is at best, severely misguided.

Nobody can know what it like to "feel like a woman" because people either are women or they aren't. No two women's feelings about their identity is the same.

The only thing that is consistent is their biology, not their mental state.

Black Sheep

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097356#Comment_120097356

I'll happily acknowledge it's speculative on my part, but I do believe the efforts made to transpose gender identity theory into law will eventually be rolled back, yes.

I listed some of the new genders earlier partly because when we actually write out loud and interrogate some of the concepts involved, they sound a bit absurd really - which is why a lot of people become a bit grumpy when they're actually put out in the light of day.

The erosion of sex-based rights in transposing gender in place of sex into law is a mistake which will impact everything from fairness in womens' sports, to safety in womens' prisons, to ensuring continued single sex services for those who desire these things.

It even goes to the meaningful sex-based collection of statistical data on topics such as rates of criminal offending and types of crime committed.

It's regrettable that legislators, in conjunction with lobbyists, have ran far beyond what there is public support for. It will undoubtedly make it harder to unpick. But I think reasonable to believe that was the intention all along. I'm glad what people refer to as the era of "no debate" appears to be over, however.

To link this to the topic of the thread at hand - in view of the above, certainly caution needs to be taken when it comes to what is taught to young children on this topic, and whether it's really necessary at all.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097424#Comment_120097424

Now why did I have to ask you that three times?

Guess_Who

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097520#Comment_120097520

I've been remarkably consistent about my stance through out the thread.

I'm pretty sure that everything in my last post was already mentioned before.

And it's a little rich to insinuate that I was hesitant to answer any questions, when I have been very forthcoming. I haven't avoided any questions.

What question was it that I refused to answer on two previous occassions?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097249#Comment_120097249

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120096770#Comment_120096770

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120096784#Comment_120096784

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097649#Comment_120097649

See above.

Guess_Who

Oh right, I had made that point a lot during the course of the thread.

My point is that it is nigh on impossible to teach children what it means to be transgender because it is a matter of feeling rather than biology.

I find it hypocritical that only the two binary sex genders are legally recognised genders.

I find it also hypocritical that people say that there is a difference between transgenderism and transexualism when it suits, but then call back to the law which states that there is in fact no difference.

I find it silly that people claim to be an ally for transgenderism when they can't definitively state how many genders they believe to exist. You can't approve and support something so nebulus without holding yourself liable to be supporting something you find distasteful.

I don't believe that there is the place of the state to educate children, especially primary school children, about matters such as this, when it is absolutely not fact based.

You have mentioned that you have no idea what it is to be transgender, as you aren't transgender yourself. How would that work in a classroom setting? Should they have a transperson come in and give a talk? Would that not be exceptionally narrow view on transgenderism and would you need to bring in a plethora of different trans people who have gone through vastly different experiences?

What does it means to be transgender? I agree, you can't answer that.

What does it mean to be a woman? You COULD answer that, but according to your signature, that's a question that isn't relevant.

So why is what it means to be transgender relevant?

Black Sheep

TENI have been upfront about wanting to expand the recognised genders to include non binary, I think it's likely they'd take an expansive view into the future. I agree if you accept some of the basic theory they have to take that view.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097725#Comment_120097725

Someone asked what I thought should be taught, and that's what I answered.

You don't need to go into every aspect of transgneder, what it means and every other gender under the sun to teach it to kids. A lot of us have know what transgender means and some know what it entails (I do have a few transgender friends - although I've never discussed it with at length, if I wanted to they'd be more than accomodating) and yet we've never gone and done courses in it or researched ALL the different genders out there. There are kids out there who understrand it because they're difrectly effected by it, either by having a transgneder family member or friend in the family social circle, or they've seen movies with transgedner people in them, e.g. Elliot Page.

Nor do I have to know what should be on the course to be in favour of the idea. Or have a relevant qualification to prescribe a syllabus. Plenty of people are in favour of compulsory Irish, but don't speak irish.

As for the "what is a woman" in the signature - I've explained that: someone asks that in every transgender thread, and then that's it - end of discussion. One side claiming that it's whatever the person want s it to be, there other saying that if you're born with a vagina, you're a woman. Cue pages of bickering, fighting and insults followed by threadbans and no one knows what the original topic was about. I refuse to answer because no one benefits from that. In any case, it doesn't matter unless the person is trying to prove transgender doesn't exist, which is a bit like saying the earth is flat and not an argument I waste energy on.

Guess_Who

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097733#Comment_120097733

TENI don't actually explain what THEY consider a gender, and specifically what genders they are championing.

Are we to accept that transGENDER individuals only refer to people who believe they are the opposite binary sex (eg male to female, female to male)?

How can you want to expand to different genders, when it is widely accepted that there is no specific criterion that you need to meet to declare yourself a gender?

I mean, a transwoman obviously identifies as what we know to be a woman (i.e. a female) and a transman identifies as a man (i.e. a male). But as we have seen, genders can and do, refer to people outside of those two.

How can that work?

The only possible explanation I can see that would make any sense is to give an option of "male" "female" & "other" but that in itself causes an issue.

And yes, I know this is taking it to an extreme, but it is being done to make a point... what if someone's gender identified them as an animal (dog, cat, horse, cow etc)?

Should that be recognised? If not, why not?

How can we say, in all honesty, that their belief is any more or any less valid than someone who is biologically female who has a genuine belief they are a biological male?

Guess_Who

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120098678#Comment_120098678

You are again, almost right, when it comes to the flat earth analogy.

If someone came up to me and said the world was flat, I would give them proof that it wasn't. I would also discount what they said if they weren't willing to back it up with provable evidence or at the very least, a compelling argument based on fact rather than feelings.

I am not saying that this flat earther doesn't exist. I am saying that their belief is not true. And provably so. I am not denying they exist. I am just saying that what they believe isn't true, despite how much they believe it. I have no issue with them believing what they do. But don't compel me to have to say I agree or accept it.

Much the same way as a male coming to me and saying "I am female".

I am not saying they do not exist. I am saying that their belief is not true. And provably so. I am not denying they exist. I am just saying that what they believe isn't true, despite how much they believe it. I have no issue with them believing what they do. But don't compel me to have to say I agree or accept it.

Canterelle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097733#Comment_120097733

What are the non-binary genders?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120098732#Comment_120098732

The problem is, they don't accept proof. That's the entire problem. Their attitude is "**** proof, **** science - what I believe is right!"

Also to clarify - I wasn't implying you in the last paragraph of that previous post.

Guess_Who

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120098829#Comment_120098829

"The problem is, they don't accept proof. That's the entire problem. Their attitude is "**** proof, **** science - what I believe is right!"

Now please tell me how that isn't the absolute premise of transgenderism and Self ID?

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120098732#Comment_120098732

You dont have to believe anything. The problem is that you dont want trans people to be in anyway legally recognised as who they are. You want others compelled legally to your viewpoint.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120098842#Comment_120098842

Oh, I'm not saying it isn't - I'm saying the moment I encounter that in a debate regardless of where it comes from, I get off. It's not what people believe, it's te extremist lengths they'll go to defned it even when it's untenable. And I've encountered it with left, right, woke, poplulist, conspiracy theorist, activist, alt-, religious, natoinalist.... everything.

No group is immune to it.

Guess_Who

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120098898#Comment_120098898

I completely understand where you are coming from. It's rife on social media

But in this particular scenario, on this specific topic, only one side do not care about facts or about science.

I have no hatred towards trans people. Anyone feeling like they are not comfortable in their own skin have nothing except my sympathy and my very best wishes.

That doesn't mean that I need to believe or to encourage that their feeling (as real as it may be to them) is in any way rooted in actual provable reality.

And for this reason, I don't think it's possible or acceptable for the state to try to "educate" children what it means to be transgender.

Guess_Who

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120098864#Comment_120098864

Thats not true.

That is your bad faith interpretation of what my stance is.

Do you think that transgender people actually change into the biological sex that they wish to be by virtue of receiving a certificate?

The legal stance is moot.

Would you tell a transman that they are as much of a male as a biological male? Or would you tell them that they can be a man, but they would always be a biological female?

yourdeadwright

It's simple if a trans women was a real women , we would not be putting the word Trans in front of women ,

Trans people have every right to be who the want to be and feel how they want to be & most importantly be happy but that does not change reality or science

If a Transwomen wants to be legally recognised as transwomen then there should be absolutely no problem with that at all , But a transwomen being legally recognised as a women is simply a false reality of make believe ,

Don't blame me its simple science

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099025#Comment_120099025

They are legally recognised though.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120098966#Comment_120098966

I dont tell trans people anything about how they should or shouldnt identify. Its not my place to tell anyone they are wrong. I recognise the lived reality of trans people.

The legal stance isnt moot. Trans people exist and have a legal right to assert their gender identity.

Trans people go through various aspects of transition; social, medical, legal.

Guess_Who

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099060#Comment_120099060

No. Two sets of trans people have a right. Transmen and transwomen. There are countless more types of genders.

Unless you believe that other genders are somehow less valid.

I keep making this point and you keep ignoring it.

As for recognising "lived reality", where does that end for you? Is it only for trans people or is it for any people who suffer from body dysmorphia or people who genuinely believe they are something they provably aren't?

If it's only trans people, why?

It's a very simple question.

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120094687#Comment_120094687

I strongly disagree that "we all know transpeople exist"

I would argue that we all know there are people who believe or want to believe that they are of a different gender.

That's very different to me believing that they are of a different gender.

I know that there are people who believe the earth is flat, that doesnt mean that I know that the earth is flat.

yourdeadwright

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099038#Comment_120099038

Doesn't mean its right,

An example if a lad meet a women on a night out & done the deed & later found out the women was a transwomen, IS that ok for them not to have disclosed that information , ? They have no legal obligations because they are legal a women ?

There inability to tell the difference between reality & there own feelings should not be able to effect someone else's life,.

yourdeadwright

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099060#Comment_120099060

Is there other parts of your life where you are willing to over look reality or biology just because someone's feelings ?

Or is it just when it comes to gender its ok to ignore factual reality ,

Now im not saying we shouldn't be inclusive & welcoming to everyone, Everyone can live there life in a happy & safe environment but we should also be able to be draw a line at reality ,facts, biology ,

Guess_Who

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099060#Comment_120099060

In what other aspect of life would you think this was acceptable?

If someone younger than you identified as being your father, would you accept that it is their lived reality? No. Because you know it is not true.

If someone genuinely believed they were a cat, would you accept that they should be seen by a vet?

If someone genuinely believed that they were a giant, despite being 5ft 10, would you agree with them?

If someone who committed a murder, but genuinely believed they didn't, said they were innocent, would you be ok with them going free?

A feeling or belief, no matter how genuine and heartfelt it is, isn't always true. Which is why we rely on facts and proof. Not "lived experience".

Why is it only trans people whose lived experience you give special treatment to?

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120094785#Comment_120094785

If you want to say that a trans person is someone who thinks/believes they are a different gender, then I'm fine with that.

We have names for all sorts of things.

Its when you try to tell me that they are what they believe I have a problem. (and indeed you have a problem, since you cant define what it is they think they are or are not)

Guess_Who

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099116#Comment_120099116

snap :)

It's not children that need lessons on transgenderism - it's adults. Children tend to live and let live.

Adults, on the other hand, are the ones that stoke fear and bigotry.

yourdeadwright

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099075#Comment_120099075

But someone who believes they are a different gender is a "Trans person"

There is no question that they exist that can't even be up for debate , there are thousand of them .

What up for debate is can they become they fully become other gender , fully transition & lose the "Trans" in front of there gender ,

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097500#Comment_120097500

It’s not transposing gender identity theory into law any more than prohibiting discrimination against a person on the grounds of gender or sex is transposing Feminism into law for example, or prohibiting discrimination against a person on the grounds of religion is transposing Christianity, Islam or Judaism into law.

Of the many implications which arise as a result of recognition of everyone’s right to their gender identity, the concept of “erosion of sex-based rights” isn’t one of them, because the concept of sex-based rights has never existed in the first place, certainly not in Ireland. There are exemptions in equality legislation which permits discrimination in certain circumstances, such as sports or indeed the provision of single-sex services, and those have continued to exist in Ireland even since the gender recognition act was introduced. I think if anything is being transposed here, it’s arguments from campaigners in other countries that don’t apply in Irish or European law.

Legislators were always going to go beyond what there was public support for, because Hunan Rights were never a popularity contest in the first place. It took numerous court cases before people who are transgender were recognised at a European level, then more years again before the GRA became legislation in Ireland, nearly 25 years. That was the actual era of no debate, because there was no public support for the idea, and politicians could get away with not having to legislate in Irish law to recognise the rights of people who are transgender and their existence as a social class in Irish society.

It was no different than had been done to women to refuse to recognise women as a social class by depriving them of equal recognition in Irish law, for fear by politicians of a backlash at the polls by men who were of the opinion that extending existing rights to women would deprive men of their rights. That’s not what was happening, any more than extending rights to people who are transgender deprives either men or women of any existing rights.

Caution is always taken in the teaching of anything to children to ensure that the material is age-appropriate and so on, and the curriculum is periodically reviewed to ensure that the material being taught is appropriate in preparing children to become socially aware responsible adults. It’s what’s meant by ensuring that children receive a minimum education, moral, intellectual and social, in accordance with the provisions of the Irish Constitution. It’s already been demonstrated that it’s necessary when adults are largely ignorant of the topic and imagine that they are permitted to discriminate against people on the basis of their being transgender, or on any of the other grounds of discrimination which are prohibited in Irish law.

What becomes clear is that some adults forget what they have learned in school and think only of themselves, and imagine that other people’s rights are irrelevant. The legislation exists to remind them of the fact that other people are entitled to equal protection in Irish law as they are. In an ideal world it shouldn’t be necessary to remind adults that other people exist, it’s already something they would have learned as children, they just didn’t care, and so the laws exist to protect other people from the harmful effects of their behaviour and attitudes towards others, in particular the idea that they imagine they can treat other people however they like, regardless of what the law says.

Guess_Who

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099203#Comment_120099203

That sounds ok.

But what lesson do you think that adults need?

A brief outline would do.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099075#Comment_120099075

Nice timing...

Guess_Who

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099207#Comment_120099207

But are they? Unless they have the magical certificate?

Joking aside, yes, trans people exist. absolutely.

yourdeadwright

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099266#Comment_120099266

A Trans person is a trans person & have every right to be just that,

Can they every fully transition NO its scientifically impossible,

Guess_Who

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099304#Comment_120099304

nah I agree. I was just being silly.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099304#Comment_120099304

It’s not a question of science, it’s a question of what you mean by ‘fully transition’.

Basically, being transgender doesn’t mean anything in relation to whether or not any psychological or medical intervention is required at all. It would be like suggesting that women can never fully transition to being regarded as men, it’s physically impossible, nothing whatsoever to do with science which is simply a tool used to observe, quantify and classify phenomena in nature.

Because women can’t fully transition to being men doesn’t mean that discrimination against women is justified, any more than discrimination against people who are transgender can be justified by arguing it’s physically impossible for them to transition to being women.

yourdeadwright

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099359#Comment_120099359

Your missing my point,

I agree Transgender people exists & have every right to do so & should have all the right anyone does & be happy and accepted ,

What i don't agree with is the law that a Trans gender women can become a women, Its not realty , its make believe it can not happen ,

We should accept everyone & make everyone feel loved but we should also live in reality based world & not make believe

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099390#Comment_120099390

I’m not missing your point at all, completely understand where you’re coming from, but Irish law doesn’t suggest that women can become men or vice versa, it does nothing more than recognise that people have the right to be protected from discrimination on the grounds of gender, in the same manner as it recognises that people have the right to be protected from discrimination on any of the other eight grounds in equality legislation such as religion, disability, membership of the traveller community, etc.

You argue that we live in a reality based world, yet refuse to acknowledge that it’s because we live in a reality based world where people can’t be obligated to accept everyone and make everyone feel loved, is the reason equality legislation exists - you don’t have to accept and love everyone, but you can’t discriminate against people unlawfully either based upon your own made-up beliefs about other people.

I certainly don’t have any interest in that hippy dippy accept and love everyone guff, but it’s good to know that I cannot be discriminated against on grounds of religion or disability, and for the last 7 years at least, I can’t be discriminated against on the grounds of gender either because the law was made up to reflect the reality of the existence of people who are transgender. It’s something which captures my interest because I’m interested in Human Rights, which are far more important and influential in governing society than any argument that people should only be granted rights based upon the limitations of their physiology.

Beasty

Seems the thread is now just going over the same ground as many others on this topic

Don't think there is anything new being introduced

Closed