Enoch Burke turns up to school again despite sacking - read OP before posting

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211314#Comment_120211314

I agree there but the principal’s initial statement was the cause of Burke’s admitted over reaction. Nowhere from either side of the Wilson Hospital School debacle have I heard the principal’s initial statement was an open ended one. And not a ‘decree’ as Burke would no doubt view it.

Because if the statement on the ‘They’ pronoun was open ended surely it would have been stated by now? And Burke would have even less of a case for his gripe.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211258#Comment_120211258

Why was Burke not given the option not to use the They pronoun?

How many times are you going to ask variations of this question hoping for an answer that you agree with?

The facts aren't going to change just because you keep asking.

Firstly - The law is clear around equality , so the principal was obligated to support the request from the Parents and the student.

Secondly and by far most importantly in this instance is that Enoch Burke point blank refused to have any discussion or negotiation about this issue.

He demanded that the school outright reject the request and that NO ONE be allowed to refer to the student using gender neutral terms. When he was told that this wan't an option he had his tantrums which got him suspended and fired.

This has been explained to you repeatedly.

Equally , it has been pointed out on this thread by multiple posters that it's an almost certainty that there are other schools with transgender students and also ones that have staff that aren't comfortable with the use of gender neutral terms.

But guess what? There are no other teachers standing outside their (former) schools protesting.

Why?

Because those involved were capable of behaving like adults and were willing to find a compromise solution that allowed everyone to get on with it.

Sadly , "Behaving like an adult" and "Compromise" are not attributes that Enoch Burke possesses.

archermoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211378#Comment_120211378

No, the cause for Burke's overreaction was entirely himself.

The staff were informed that a student had a new name and used new pronouns. If he had an issue with that there are proper procedures for him to follow to do so. He chose not to use them and instead jumped straight to being abusive. That is entirely on him.

As it is he has no basis for his gripe. His beliefs have absolutely nothing to do with why he was suspended or fired.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211258#Comment_120211258

Gormdubhgorm, all these questions have been discussed multiple times now.

And as has been explained many times on this thread, Burke did have the option not to use the "they/them" pronoun. He could have simply used the student's name. That's if he ever came into contact with them.

Despite claiming you accept the student's rights, with each post its becomes more obvious that you clearly don't, as you somehow seem to think everyone else has a greater right to deny them their rights, because "it's awkward".

Nor do I think you fully understand the signifcance of gender affirmation to a trans person.

Maybe you will find the clarity you seek within the Equal Status Acts.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211258#Comment_120211258

Exactly, the school principle at the time handled the issue poorly from the start. A bit less dictate and a bit more room for individual expression and this would have passed by with no notice. I'm sure lessons will have be learnt though around the country. Co-incidentally or otherwise, the principle in question has moved on now.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211513#Comment_120211513

Im sure many people have learned that refusing to compromising and refusing to take part in a disciplinary process is a surefire way to get fired and make your unemployable.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211559#Comment_120211559

Yawn.. same old guff :)

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211580#Comment_120211580

yeah imagine expecting an adult to behave like an adult.

Henry Ford III

There will perhaps be a bit of action on this on Friday as I believe Enoch is due back in the High Court then.

Question is will he:-

A/. Break open his piggy bank?

or

B/. Pack his pj's and toothbrush for another stretch in the 'joy?

Thankfully it's a short week.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211513#Comment_120211513

Again...

The ONLY person who "handled the issue poorly" was Enoch Burke.

The ONLY person refusing to to allow any kind of "individual expression" was Enoch Burke.

Lesson have indeed been learned - Never hire a Burke and we are also likely to see some new powers given to the Judiciary to aide them in handling recalcitrant injunctees.

And yes , the Principal has since moved on - To become Principal of a larger school in another part of the country , coincidentally or otherwise....

"A bit more room for individual expression"

You mean, like when a trans person makes a request to be called by the name they choose and gender they identify as?

Or does your definition of "individual expression" not go that far?

Also Principal McShane publically announced she was leaving WHS on 3 June, almost 3 weeks before the event where Burke accosted her, which led to his dismissal. No connection at all.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211634#Comment_120211634

Also Principal McShane publically announced she was leaving WHS on 3 June, almost 3 weeks before the event where Burke accosted her, which led to his dismissal. No connection at all.

much more fun for the enoch supporters to make insinuations.

archermoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211705#Comment_120211705

Well, it is pretty much all they have. That and pretending his getting fired was about something other than his behavior.

He's back.....just in case anyone was wondering

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/enoch-burkes-fines-rise-to-8400-after-he-arrives-at-school-again-42330886.html

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211786#Comment_120211786

People definitely losing interest now.

A wet and windy week might revive interest.

Does he hang around all day? Any breaks?

No doubt he will bring his "struggle" to the European courts.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211513#Comment_120211513

I'm not sure if you are trolling or if you don't actually understand what happened.

So, here's a serious question. How did the Principal handle the issue poorly?

It's my opinion that there's no chance that Burke was going to let this pass with no notice.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211786#Comment_120211786

Yep, and notice the error in the reporting.

Last August the school requested that teachers address a trans student by their preferred name and pronouns.

Mr Burke refused to do so on religious grounds, saying transgenderism goes against his beliefs.

He was then suspended from the school but kept turning up for work on a daily basis.

No mention that what he was actually suspended for, was for accosting Principal McShane. 🤦‍♀️

The Extra.ie article is guilty of the same thing.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211817#Comment_120211817

No doubt he will bring his "struggle" to the European courts.

He's blown any chance of that with his actions and behaviours throughout this whole circus.

Nothing that has happened to him is because of his beliefs.

Any claim that it is fails instantly at the question - "Did you raise a formal complaint about this via the agreed grievance process?"

His answer here is no, so that's the end of that for him legally speaking in terms of trying to make this about freedom of expression/freedom of religion.

He might have some angles around legal technicalities/failures in the dismissal process in terms of an undotted I or uncrossed T somewhere, but if they exist they will have absolutely nothing whatsoever with his religious beliefs etc.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211833#Comment_120211833

Indeed , that "editorial simplification" does not help at all in terms of clearly stating the true nature of the issue.

hynesie08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211513#Comment_120211513

a bit more room for individual expression 

Like changing your pronouns? And the only one dictating was creeper burke.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211852#Comment_120211852

it might explain why 30% of people have sympathy for him.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120210288#Comment_120210288

Its a minor change in words. No big deal.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211963#Comment_120211963

No it isn’t if it was that simple ‘they’ would be a universal acceptable pronoun in the English language. But it isn’t far from it. I appreciate you are involved in ‘the cause’ and in that small bubble as an advocate. But it is a tiny minority basically trying to change normal everyday word usage to suit a cause. Logically it just doesn’t work. When at best others not in the bubble ‘play along’ while thinking him/her.

That is the difference between the transgender grouping and all other minorities. For the minority to achieve full recognition in their eyes. The whole world and society must change their everyday language to suit an extremely small minority.

Basically impacting massively on society as whole on the basis of an ideology.

It is no better than Burke’s extreme religious views IMO. In some ways worse as this tiny minority 0.03% worldwide suddenly declare everyone else is wrong you MUST use the ‘they’ pronoun etc.

When logically for many it is just daft and sounds daft. Which is why most at leat still think him/her, before checking to ‘they’.

In my view for the transgender movement to succeed - the whole of society has to buy into ‘they’ or else the whole idea folds like a pack of cards.

That is the fundamental difference between the Burke ideology and the transgender one.

The Burke ideology is not dependent upon others believing what he believes. He can still believe it irregardless. But he won’t do anything that counter that belief system.

But can still act as himself as an individual. He doesn’t need the world collective for his belief system to remain

But the transgender society is wholly dependent on the collective (the majority of the worlds population) to really buy into their belief system for a transgender person to function as they see themselves. Language has to be changed by the whole of society to do this. It is in complete contrast to Burke’s ideology.

For that reason I just can’t see transgender people ever really fully intergrating with mainstream society. At best most of society plays the language game for transgender people to humour them, avoiding him/her while thinking it. Or at worst it sends people like Burke into a rage.

Maybe I am wrong and in 30 years ‘they’ etc will become a normal pronoun and 20/30% of the world will be transgender. Unlike the tiny fraction there is today.

But I can’t see it transgender people will be still heavily dependent on mainstream society at least pretending to see what the transgender person sees themselves as. But is that true acceptance and true equality?

Or is it just some of mainstream society, humouring a very minority with careful new language to humour them?

knucklehead6

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212414#Comment_120212414

I don’t think that transgender people are asking that everyone stops using he/she in general, but that they are asking for people to use they/them WHEN dealing with TG people.

from your post you seem to think that TG people are asking for the discontinuation of he/she and that they are consigned to ye olde scrap heap.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212414#Comment_120212414

In my view for the transgender movement to succeed the whole of society has to buy into ‘they’ or else the whole idea folds like a pack of cards.

You keep displaying an impressive lack of comprehension of a topic you keep posting about.

Like, even by accident, you should have gained some understanding by now.

archermoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212414#Comment_120212414

They and them have been used as singular pronouns in English for about as long as the language has existed. The premise of your entire post is flawed.

kirk.

I must be missing something obvious but doesn't a court order normally mean you must comply or be arrested

archermoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212438#Comment_120212438

Yeah, but he has to grasp at whatever straws he can to try and pretend like it is somehow difficult to call people what they prefer to be called.

And certainly, a lot of transgender people prefer he/him or she/her as their pronouns. Primarily it is non-binary people who prefer they/them, though certainly not all of them.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212438#Comment_120212438

I wouldn’t say scrap heap but gradual phrasing out. I mean the cis gender term is another example of the pushing of the changing of language. No longer is there man/woman etc.

Personally I blame a lot of this stuff on the yanks and the internet. And people who are very wrapped up and invested it lobbying, vocal etc. I mean where else has it stemmed from? It just seems as if many in the English speaking world who are young impressionable- may have underlying issues.

Such people Have been overly influenced by Americanisms via the internet. And the transgender stuff is an example of this. Most of whom seem about as much craic as Enoch- ironically.

And if you even question the logic of the whole thing you are then a de facto bigot.

I never thought we would reach a stage in my lifetime where him/her is considered an insult unless defined. And suddenly in the ‘with it’ places feel the need to emphasise him/her in emails.

What is the point? 99.97% percentage of times it is fairly obvious!

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212515#Comment_120212515

I honestly think you're on a wind up.

It's not that hard to change pronoun use for .03% of the population. I honestly don't see how it's different than using titles in every day speech "Yes, Garda", "Yes, Nurse " "Yes, Doctor" "Yes, Father", "Yes, Reverend", for example.

They/them is routinely used, especially when gender is unknown. Most here use they/them when referring to posters as we don't know their gender.

I think you're pushing your agenda that trans people shouldn't be respected and that you should be able to use whatever pronoun makes YOU comfortable.

Trans people have been around 1000's of years. It's not new but like most things, it seems new as the internet has allowed us to share stories and knowledge, and people realize they're not on their own and there's a reason they feel that way.

I doubt we'll see trans individuals go past 1% of the population, but it still doesn't mean we shouldn't respect them.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120210577#Comment_120210577

I'm sure he has the ability to see past his present stance to actually take advantage of it..... we'll have to see.

osarusan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120210352#Comment_120210352

It wouldn't have been the end of the matter though.

'Religions beliefs protected by the constitution' isn't some kind of foolproof catch-all defence.

Otherwise anybody could claim the right to do or not do anything based on religious beliefs.

archermoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212573#Comment_120212573

You'd think. But if he had that ability he would have sent this through the correct channels from the beginning. I'm not convinced that assuming he is a rational actor is justified.

knucklehead6

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212515#Comment_120212515

To a certain extent you are nearly right, and coming close to making a point I’d agree with. I have a kid who says he is transgender. The thing is that at home he is still he. When out with their friends they are they. We have asked him on a couple of times would he prefer for us to call him by his chosen name but he says no every time. There is a part of me that wonders if he is TG or is he just doing the whole attention seeking “I’m different” thing.

archermoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212612#Comment_120212612

I have in fact known people (in the US, not Ireland) who have used that rationale to argue that they should be legally allowed to discriminate against people based on the colour of their skin. Since their religious beliefs include that POC are innately inferior and treating them as equals violates their religious beliefs. So yeah, the arguments from the anti-trans crowd are sadly familiar.

Sheep breeder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211614#Comment_120211614

This person is on the taking the piss, or is one of the Burke’s. How thick can they be this is 2023 not 1923 the principal done nothing wrong and the child is entitled to be who and what they want to be and is their choice and respect. Burke saw an opening to push his religion and all about him and what mammy wants and the end of the day they are evil and they won’t see the perils gates if their is a god.

highdef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212478#Comment_120212478

I don't use "they" or "them" when referring to a single person. To do so just sounds strange to me as "they" and "them" refer to multiples of people, from my point of view. If I am speaking to someone who is a certified schizophrenic and they wish to be called "they" or "them", I could justify that as I'm effectively talking to multiple people. But for a single non-schizophrenic person to ask me to address them as multiple people just sounds so wrong to me, in terms of the English language. They are my beliefs, should I expect others to respect them? There's no phobia, dislike or hatred attached to my opinions.

BTW, I have absolutely no issue with someone who wants to change gender/is in the process of changing gender/has changed gender/wishes to change tender/etc, it's simply the use of the words "they" or "them" to address one person that just goes against my use of the English language. You could say that they are my "beliefs".

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212722#Comment_120212722

"But for a single non-schizophrenic person to ask me to address them as multiple people just sounds so wrong to me, in terms of the English language."

knucklehead6

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212722#Comment_120212722

If you are speaking TOO someone you use you.

if I’m speaking to a colleague in work I don’t use his/hers, I use you.

it’s only when referring to the person in the third person that him/her/they becomes appropriate. And all you need to do in that case is use the persons name. It’s not that difficult.

archermoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212722#Comment_120212722

"Hey, when the driver delivers your food don't forget to give them a tip!"

Again, the use of they/them as singular pronouns has been part of the English language for about as long as it has existed. Assuming you're a native English speaker I'm pretty sure that you use them that way regularly without noticing.

Karppi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212414#Comment_120212414

Dear heavens, you’ve got some stamina in pursuing your agenda, I’ll say that. Burke was disciplined and subsequently fired for publicly berating the school principal. There were other avenues open to him to raise his concerns, but he chose not to use them. He then failed to abide by a court order.

Long, winding diatribes are not germane; Burke failed to follow a process which was designed to deal with any issues of policy or whatever

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212722#Comment_120212722

" But for a single non-schizophrenic person to ask me to address them as multiple people them just sounds so wrong to me,"

That wasn't too difficult now, was it?

Karppi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212722#Comment_120212722

”They” has been used for a very long time as an option to refer to a single person in the English language. It’s just become “weaponised” in recent times by a small number of zealots

highdef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212743#Comment_120212743

Valid point @Penn, I was still thinking of a person with multiple personalities when I typed that, my bad!

@knucklehead6 , a good learning exercise for me, thank you. I couldn't figure out how someone would refer to another person as multiple people when speaking to them in the 1st person. In the 3rd person is quite different, I have to admit. Would "it" sound better though, when referring about a single person, language wise?

highdef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212795#Comment_120212795

I'm still learning here!

So if a person who is biologically male decides that female is now the gender that the person identifies as, would she/her not be a more accurate way of addressing the person? A non-binary person would be different, I can only imagine.

kirk.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212740#Comment_120212740

You'd want to look up schizophrenic in the dictionary then

Karppi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212799#Comment_120212799

“it” is an object, animal or thing.

highdef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212823#Comment_120212823

Indeed I would and I'm learning further, thank you @kirk. Replace "schizophrenia" with "dissociative identity disorder". I love Boards.ie as every day is a school day 😊

highdef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212831#Comment_120212831

Humans are animals though.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212799#Comment_120212799

"They/Them" has been used since the 1300's as a singular pronoun for a person whose identity/gender may be unknown, such as referring to a person at a distance for example; "They are standing over there beside that tree", "I do not know them", "Their coat is brown".

We all use it regularly even when the gender of the person is known. "Where are they? They said they'd be here by 9!" is equally as valid as "Where is she? She said she'd be here by 9!" If anything "they" might be easier to say than "She said she'd..."