Enoch Burke turns up to school again despite sacking - read OP before posting

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211833#Comment_120211833

Indeed , that "editorial simplification" does not help at all in terms of clearly stating the true nature of the issue.

hynesie08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211513#Comment_120211513

a bit more room for individual expression 

Like changing your pronouns? And the only one dictating was creeper burke.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211852#Comment_120211852

it might explain why 30% of people have sympathy for him.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120210288#Comment_120210288

Its a minor change in words. No big deal.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211963#Comment_120211963

No it isn’t if it was that simple ‘they’ would be a universal acceptable pronoun in the English language. But it isn’t far from it. I appreciate you are involved in ‘the cause’ and in that small bubble as an advocate. But it is a tiny minority basically trying to change normal everyday word usage to suit a cause. Logically it just doesn’t work. When at best others not in the bubble ‘play along’ while thinking him/her.

That is the difference between the transgender grouping and all other minorities. For the minority to achieve full recognition in their eyes. The whole world and society must change their everyday language to suit an extremely small minority.

Basically impacting massively on society as whole on the basis of an ideology.

It is no better than Burke’s extreme religious views IMO. In some ways worse as this tiny minority 0.03% worldwide suddenly declare everyone else is wrong you MUST use the ‘they’ pronoun etc.

When logically for many it is just daft and sounds daft. Which is why most at leat still think him/her, before checking to ‘they’.

In my view for the transgender movement to succeed - the whole of society has to buy into ‘they’ or else the whole idea folds like a pack of cards.

That is the fundamental difference between the Burke ideology and the transgender one.

The Burke ideology is not dependent upon others believing what he believes. He can still believe it irregardless. But he won’t do anything that counter that belief system.

But can still act as himself as an individual. He doesn’t need the world collective for his belief system to remain

But the transgender society is wholly dependent on the collective (the majority of the worlds population) to really buy into their belief system for a transgender person to function as they see themselves. Language has to be changed by the whole of society to do this. It is in complete contrast to Burke’s ideology.

For that reason I just can’t see transgender people ever really fully intergrating with mainstream society. At best most of society plays the language game for transgender people to humour them, avoiding him/her while thinking it. Or at worst it sends people like Burke into a rage.

Maybe I am wrong and in 30 years ‘they’ etc will become a normal pronoun and 20/30% of the world will be transgender. Unlike the tiny fraction there is today.

But I can’t see it transgender people will be still heavily dependent on mainstream society at least pretending to see what the transgender person sees themselves as. But is that true acceptance and true equality?

Or is it just some of mainstream society, humouring a very minority with careful new language to humour them?

knucklehead6

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212414#Comment_120212414

I don’t think that transgender people are asking that everyone stops using he/she in general, but that they are asking for people to use they/them WHEN dealing with TG people.

from your post you seem to think that TG people are asking for the discontinuation of he/she and that they are consigned to ye olde scrap heap.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212414#Comment_120212414

In my view for the transgender movement to succeed the whole of society has to buy into ‘they’ or else the whole idea folds like a pack of cards.

You keep displaying an impressive lack of comprehension of a topic you keep posting about.

Like, even by accident, you should have gained some understanding by now.

archermoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212414#Comment_120212414

They and them have been used as singular pronouns in English for about as long as the language has existed. The premise of your entire post is flawed.

kirk.

I must be missing something obvious but doesn't a court order normally mean you must comply or be arrested

archermoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212438#Comment_120212438

Yeah, but he has to grasp at whatever straws he can to try and pretend like it is somehow difficult to call people what they prefer to be called.

And certainly, a lot of transgender people prefer he/him or she/her as their pronouns. Primarily it is non-binary people who prefer they/them, though certainly not all of them.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212438#Comment_120212438

I wouldn’t say scrap heap but gradual phrasing out. I mean the cis gender term is another example of the pushing of the changing of language. No longer is there man/woman etc.

Personally I blame a lot of this stuff on the yanks and the internet. And people who are very wrapped up and invested it lobbying, vocal etc. I mean where else has it stemmed from? It just seems as if many in the English speaking world who are young impressionable- may have underlying issues.

Such people Have been overly influenced by Americanisms via the internet. And the transgender stuff is an example of this. Most of whom seem about as much craic as Enoch- ironically.

And if you even question the logic of the whole thing you are then a de facto bigot.

I never thought we would reach a stage in my lifetime where him/her is considered an insult unless defined. And suddenly in the ‘with it’ places feel the need to emphasise him/her in emails.

What is the point? 99.97% percentage of times it is fairly obvious!

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212515#Comment_120212515

I honestly think you're on a wind up.

It's not that hard to change pronoun use for .03% of the population. I honestly don't see how it's different than using titles in every day speech "Yes, Garda", "Yes, Nurse " "Yes, Doctor" "Yes, Father", "Yes, Reverend", for example.

They/them is routinely used, especially when gender is unknown. Most here use they/them when referring to posters as we don't know their gender.

I think you're pushing your agenda that trans people shouldn't be respected and that you should be able to use whatever pronoun makes YOU comfortable.

Trans people have been around 1000's of years. It's not new but like most things, it seems new as the internet has allowed us to share stories and knowledge, and people realize they're not on their own and there's a reason they feel that way.

I doubt we'll see trans individuals go past 1% of the population, but it still doesn't mean we shouldn't respect them.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120210577#Comment_120210577

I'm sure he has the ability to see past his present stance to actually take advantage of it..... we'll have to see.

osarusan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120210352#Comment_120210352

It wouldn't have been the end of the matter though.

'Religions beliefs protected by the constitution' isn't some kind of foolproof catch-all defence.

Otherwise anybody could claim the right to do or not do anything based on religious beliefs.

archermoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212573#Comment_120212573

You'd think. But if he had that ability he would have sent this through the correct channels from the beginning. I'm not convinced that assuming he is a rational actor is justified.

knucklehead6

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212515#Comment_120212515

To a certain extent you are nearly right, and coming close to making a point I’d agree with. I have a kid who says he is transgender. The thing is that at home he is still he. When out with their friends they are they. We have asked him on a couple of times would he prefer for us to call him by his chosen name but he says no every time. There is a part of me that wonders if he is TG or is he just doing the whole attention seeking “I’m different” thing.

archermoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212612#Comment_120212612

I have in fact known people (in the US, not Ireland) who have used that rationale to argue that they should be legally allowed to discriminate against people based on the colour of their skin. Since their religious beliefs include that POC are innately inferior and treating them as equals violates their religious beliefs. So yeah, the arguments from the anti-trans crowd are sadly familiar.

Sheep breeder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211614#Comment_120211614

This person is on the taking the piss, or is one of the Burke’s. How thick can they be this is 2023 not 1923 the principal done nothing wrong and the child is entitled to be who and what they want to be and is their choice and respect. Burke saw an opening to push his religion and all about him and what mammy wants and the end of the day they are evil and they won’t see the perils gates if their is a god.

highdef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212478#Comment_120212478

I don't use "they" or "them" when referring to a single person. To do so just sounds strange to me as "they" and "them" refer to multiples of people, from my point of view. If I am speaking to someone who is a certified schizophrenic and they wish to be called "they" or "them", I could justify that as I'm effectively talking to multiple people. But for a single non-schizophrenic person to ask me to address them as multiple people just sounds so wrong to me, in terms of the English language. They are my beliefs, should I expect others to respect them? There's no phobia, dislike or hatred attached to my opinions.

BTW, I have absolutely no issue with someone who wants to change gender/is in the process of changing gender/has changed gender/wishes to change tender/etc, it's simply the use of the words "they" or "them" to address one person that just goes against my use of the English language. You could say that they are my "beliefs".

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212722#Comment_120212722

"But for a single non-schizophrenic person to ask me to address them as multiple people just sounds so wrong to me, in terms of the English language."

knucklehead6

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212722#Comment_120212722

If you are speaking TOO someone you use you.

if I’m speaking to a colleague in work I don’t use his/hers, I use you.

it’s only when referring to the person in the third person that him/her/they becomes appropriate. And all you need to do in that case is use the persons name. It’s not that difficult.

archermoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212722#Comment_120212722

"Hey, when the driver delivers your food don't forget to give them a tip!"

Again, the use of they/them as singular pronouns has been part of the English language for about as long as it has existed. Assuming you're a native English speaker I'm pretty sure that you use them that way regularly without noticing.

Karppi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212414#Comment_120212414

Dear heavens, you’ve got some stamina in pursuing your agenda, I’ll say that. Burke was disciplined and subsequently fired for publicly berating the school principal. There were other avenues open to him to raise his concerns, but he chose not to use them. He then failed to abide by a court order.

Long, winding diatribes are not germane; Burke failed to follow a process which was designed to deal with any issues of policy or whatever

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212722#Comment_120212722

" But for a single non-schizophrenic person to ask me to address them as multiple people them just sounds so wrong to me,"

That wasn't too difficult now, was it?

Karppi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212722#Comment_120212722

”They” has been used for a very long time as an option to refer to a single person in the English language. It’s just become “weaponised” in recent times by a small number of zealots

highdef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212743#Comment_120212743

Valid point @Penn, I was still thinking of a person with multiple personalities when I typed that, my bad!

@knucklehead6 , a good learning exercise for me, thank you. I couldn't figure out how someone would refer to another person as multiple people when speaking to them in the 1st person. In the 3rd person is quite different, I have to admit. Would "it" sound better though, when referring about a single person, language wise?

highdef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212795#Comment_120212795

I'm still learning here!

So if a person who is biologically male decides that female is now the gender that the person identifies as, would she/her not be a more accurate way of addressing the person? A non-binary person would be different, I can only imagine.

kirk.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212740#Comment_120212740

You'd want to look up schizophrenic in the dictionary then

Karppi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212799#Comment_120212799

“it” is an object, animal or thing.

highdef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212823#Comment_120212823

Indeed I would and I'm learning further, thank you @kirk. Replace "schizophrenia" with "dissociative identity disorder". I love Boards.ie as every day is a school day 😊