Enoch Burke turns up to school again despite sacking - read OP before posting

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122736689#Comment_122736689

Also its not unusual these days to have students turn 18 in transition year (no pun intended) or sixth year. So, legal adults.

Hamsterchops

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122736598#Comment_122736598

The student changed their name from a girls name to a boys name, they also asked to addressed as non-binary and they/them. Quite a lot for a teacher of children who doesn't subscribe to Trans-ideology to go along with.

Children are children, many changes, episodes and challenges as we grow up through our teen years to become adults. Then we can pretend to turn into anything (within reason) 😃

Hey-ho, we were asked by the Mod not to let this slip back into a trans debate, yet here we are again, so May I suggest (for the sake of keeping this thread alive) we all get it back on track regarding the reason Enoch ended up in jail …

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122736778#Comment_122736778

And it was a student he was unlikely to ever have dealings with… So his decision to harangue the principal was with the sole intent of causing fallout. There was never an intention of having a genuine discussion and I'd say it says a hell of a lot that he's the only case of such an escalated situation occurring after 9 years of the gender recognition act.

Anyway, I'd prefer for all teachers to have a level of basic respect for students over such a toxic individual dealing with students.

PixelCrafter

“Quite a lot for a teacher of children who doesn't subscribe to (insert topic here) to go along with.”

So what are you suggesting? Teachers should just be allowed to randomly discriminate against students based on their personal beliefs?

Sounds like a recipe for a rather horrendous school system and society in general.

The whole court case is over his unwillingness to comply with a legal injunction that requires him to not be at the school.

At this point I really think we need criminal contempt proceedings. He’s making a total farce of the legal system.

If he wants to stay in jail, that’s currently up to him. All he has to do is stay away from the school to avoid this, but he won’t as he is just seeking endless attention, and he’s getting it, more so abroad and is being portrayed as a martyr online.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122736598#Comment_122736598

Technically, no he couldn't; because the student apparently wanted to change their name as well as their pronouns. He'd have had to say "the student formerly known as …."

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122736778#Comment_122736778

First paragraph is bullshit (I think) as the direction and gender have never been made public - only to say it was a move to gender-neutral name and pronouns (correct me if I'm wrong - genuinely curious).

Your repeated inconsistencies regarding ideologies and teachers have been highlighted repeatedly and you've completely ignored them, so if a mod is giving you an out I strongly suggest you take it.

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122736838#Comment_122736838

By name, I meant their preferred name. My logic with names is more that there's pretty much no rule on which gender can have a name, there's norms but even they're pretty fluid.

Irish Aris

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122735496#Comment_122735496

OK, that's a very long answer to a simple question. Not sure why you brought the legal aspect of it, although you may want to check the gender recognition act, like others mentioned.

I think we will agree to disagree. In the paragraph you reply to my question, you put caveats that make me think you don't really want to extend any courtesy. And, if I'm honest, it comes across as you projecting your beliefs on the other person. Maybe I misunderstood you, but I will admit that I find your thought process a bit unclear.

Anyway, I'll leave it at that, as I believe we are a bit off topic. This thread is for Enoch Burke (and his family) and his legal challenges, that started when he verbally (at least) attacked the school principal during a public function.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122736838#Comment_122736838

Wonder does he insist Saul is still called Saul?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122735496#Comment_122735496

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122735496#Comment_122735496

Do you refuse to call a priest Father given that you know he's not your father?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122736550#Comment_122736550

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122736550#Comment_122736550

Are you suggesting that trans children don't exist?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122736865#Comment_122736865

He refused to use the prefred name just as much as he refused to use the requested pronouns.

CatFromHue

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122736659#Comment_122736659

I'm kind of jumping in and out of this thread so not fully following the whole conversation. It can also be easy for people for people to be discussing different aspects of the same subject. Using pronouns in the workplace, or using pronouns when it comes to accessing women's spaces, and using pronouns for convicted sex offenders are roughly the same topic but when you get into it can be very different

Asking someone to respect your pronouns is a fuzzy area when it comes to adopt a belief. It's mostly inconsequential so easy to go along with but there are some consequences when it comes to women's rights and spaces eg sport. There's also the problem with the new hate speech law that's coming in where misgendering is something that can be deemed hateful. So if this comes in the situation changes from asking someone to respect your pronouns as a common courtesy to making them as there's a threat of prosecution if you don't.

I'm fairly easy on the pronouns myself but there are exceptions where I won't use them. If a male has been convicted of a sexual or violent crime then their pronouns will always be he and him to me. In the UK there has been cases where a Judge has directed a victim of sexual assault to use she/her to the person who assaulted her, even though they were a man when they did it.

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122737240#Comment_122737240

Oh yep I think we're in agreement on this.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122737282#Comment_122737282

For the purpose of this thread, I am talking primarily about behaviour in the workplace. Enoch Burke is in prison because of his behaviour in his.

There are other threads where the other aspects you wish to get into can be discussed. There is a mod warning against disussing them here.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122737567#Comment_122737567

He is in prison for contempt of court and nothing else.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122737644#Comment_122737644

True.

But his behaviour towards the then Principal of WHS at a work function is what led to the HC injunction he is in contempt of.

Acosta

It can't be said enough what a disgrace to his profession Burke has been, to make a vulnerable minor a national story. Above all else, this is the single worst aspect of all of this. He failed the most basic level of care that you would expect from someone who has responsibility over children and teenagers. That the student wasn't even one of his pupils and someone he had no dealings with, made it even worse. He'll never teach again.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122737785#Comment_122737785

That's just what got him fired. Plenty of people mouth off to their bosses without winding up in jail in the same way that plenty of people voice opposition to trans-identification without winding up in jail.

aloyisious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122739592#Comment_122739592

The wall he walked himself into is the judges who decided that they were not prepared to allow him behave towards them in the same way he behaved towards his Principal. He doesn't yet understand that they have a different POV to his disobedience and contempt.

political analyst

It's bizarre that Enoch is still getting a salary while his appeal against his dismissal is yet to take place.

Why doesn't the employment tribunal arrange for Enoch to make the appeal from the prison via video link, which happens in court cases all the time?

The idea that hiring security guards would make Wilson's Hospital school feel like prison is ridiculous - the pupils wouldn't care.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122739592#Comment_122739592

I don't disagree. However not many do it in such a spectacular and very public fashion as EB chose to do!

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122740311#Comment_122740311

Its not the school or the DAP holding it up. It's the fact that Enoch has a legal action against it proceeding that is still pending a hearing before the Court of Appeal.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122731269#Comment_122731269

The problem is as one Justice referenced and I am paraphrasing.

You wouldn't be able to get 2 lawyers to agree on an interpretation of our contempt laws.

The reality is though for Enoch, best case scenario is it will be years before it is legislated for if at all.

There is a very real chance this could on for a decade or even longer.

aloyisious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122744143#Comment_122744143

As an adjunct to the debate proper here, it's the criminal contempt section that caught my eye. If a judge taking a high court hearing rises during the hearing, I understand that the hearing, and therefor the court, is suspended until the judge returns to the bench.

If a person in the general part of the court kicks up a fuss and make accusations against the judge, all the judge has to do is stand up and leave, thereby suspending the court. No contempt of court is declared against the person/s who kicked up the fuss or made accusations about the judge as the court was not sitting to allow the judge hear the shouting.

Throughout a good few of the hearings related to the person centred wholly in our debate, several people disrupted the court hearings on several occasions yet no criminal contempt charges were laid against them despite An GS clearing the court of disruptors on one noted occasions.

Thargor

Havent been following this for a long time sorry but is it the case that he can keep his salary as long as he's locked up? As in the employment tribunal or whatever literally cant go ahead? Or is the process to sack him while he's still inside underway?

aloyisious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122747235#Comment_122747235

It seems that he hasn't exhausted his law [as in civil-criminal] appeal process yet and the hearing at the other tribunal about his employment situation has to take second place until then.

Thargor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122747267#Comment_122747267

Any dates or explanation for the holdup?

aloyisious

Ezeoul seems to have a better handle on appearance dates for EB at both. I'll let Ezeoul give you that.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122747267#Comment_122747267

He is objecting to a member of the panel who is a union nominee for complete BS reasons.

It is beyond frivolous.

As far as I know the school do not have to keep paying or at least processing his wages, he has been fired, he isn't on admin leave or been suspended.

Now I can see why they are.

The reality is at this stage once the High Court makes some sort of ruling the Appeals Panel don't have to go through the appeal and dismiss it outright.

But this guy has been given so much rope at this stage, they will probably keep bending over backwards for him.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122737882#Comment_122737882

All credit to the school, such details of the minor never became widely known or published. If nothing else, it shows that bar Enoch, it would appear to be a well run, professional, school.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122747299#Comment_122747299

No dates, though as soon as it appears on the Court Service Legal Diary, I'll post it here.

No idea what the hold up is.

Oscar_Madison

Would it be possible to do a PhD in Mountjoy? It would be a great way to pass the time - maybe some research into the education background of criminals or something like that - you’d have an instant audience to survey. Getting paid whilst researching - there are worse ways to spend your time- and given no distractions you’d probably box off the PhD in record time

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122748148#Comment_122748148

You would have to have an institution willing to take you on as a student, a supervisor and so on. In theory it makes sense but for Enoch, I don't think any Irish university would touch him. Aside from that, he would have to pay student fees as presumably there is no stipend as I can't see a funding body touching him either.

So for a normal inmate, yes, and it would provide both an interesting resource for the right study and a route to rehabilitation but for Enoch, I can't see it even being feasible.

TheWonderLlama

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122747725#Comment_122747725

Don't know about that. They hired EB.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122748249#Comment_122748249

Hindsight, as they say…

He is actually said to have been a very good teacher before he decided to lose the plot.

Arghus

He's got a YouTube channel which is solely focused on German lessons, if people have never seen it. If you didn't know anything else about him - you'd think he comes across well:

https://youtu.be/43cEvbSwqk8?si=aErA2VrY-bMYPBT9

aero2k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122740212#Comment_122740212

Agreed, and it's clear that that the principal was equally as unimpressed with his behaviour as the judges, hence him getting fired.

He might actually understand that both the Principal and the judges have a different POV, but he either doesn't care or alternatively thinks he can use that to somehow help his narrative of being a man persecuted for his beliefs, rather than for his obnoxious and unacceptable behaviour.

aero2k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122747716#Comment_122747716

I would have preferred if there was a way to put his salary into an escrow account until all of the employment-related stuff was finalised. Assuming his termination is confirmed, he really should have to give back any earnings received since the original date of termination.

aero2k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122747750#Comment_122747750

I think no matter what dates are announced, it doesn't help in estimating when the whole thing will be sorted out. The Burke family's commitment to disrupting legal proceedings means every court appearance gives rise to an opportunity to generate further court appearances.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122748882#Comment_122748882

… use it to pay the legal bills of the school which were awared against him.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122748613#Comment_122748613

I've said in this thread more than once - I got the impression he was a dedicated and very invested teacher.

It is an awful shame that he could not agree to live and let live.

aero2k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122737109#Comment_122737109

I have referred to priests as Father, both to their faces and in their absence, I think I'd still do it. However, they don't want to get me fired or jailed for not doing so. I kinda prefer the Father Tom, Father Pat sort of thing to Father Murphy, Father O'Donnell etc, as I dislike formality and I dislike the use of titles that might indicate an acceptance of the other person being a better class of human. In that case it's possible to be polite without it being seen as providing political cover for an organisation that has harmed a lot of people.

I wouldn't have used the term "Father" if I had ever encountered Cleary or Casey, for reasons that I hope are obvious - they're well described in the media anyway.

*edited to improve grammar.

aero2k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122748904#Comment_122748904

Probably wouldn't make much of a dent in it but I like the way you're thinking😀.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122748953#Comment_122748953

Being polite is pretty much all the trans community want - the vast majority of them are not trying to get you fired in the same way the student was not tying to get Burke fired.

aero2k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122746029#Comment_122746029

I don't understand the legal ins and outs of it, but I do get the difference in contempt due to disobeying a court order, which is really an attack on the legal system and hence society as a whole, and contempt due to being disrespectful in court. I recall one case of the latter where a female journalist was held to be in contempt due to being inappropriately dressed - I can't help feeling that was more a case of the judge personally feeling disrespected. (OT but from my personal experience of court from District Court to the Special Criminal Court, judges are pompous in inverse proportion to their standing).

Suvigirl has talked about the need for sorting out the law in this area - that would however still leave the problem of what to so with EB. If he got a 10 year sentence for a statutory offence of contempt, he'd just have another opportunity to be a martyr, and he's probably still head straight back to the school on release. He doesn't seem to mind jail, though apparently his fellow prisoners aren't enamoured with him being there.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122748953#Comment_122748953

However, they don't want to get me fired or jailed for not doing so.

Who wants to get you fired or jailed?

Burke was fired for gross misconduct, behaving aggressively towards his boss.

He is jailed because he kept entering a school he had no permission to be in.

aero2k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122749000#Comment_122749000

That still leaves the minority though - how to solve that one? I'd actually accept it if rather than 'vast majority' you had said 'the entirety' - as I suspect a lot of the people looking for firings don't care too much about the people involved on either side and are looking to make people suffer for some reason that has nothing to do with trans per se.

aero2k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122749089#Comment_122749089

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I think I was absolutely clear in my previous posts that I believed Burke was fired for his obnoxious conduct, which was absolutely correct. FWIW if I was principal in the American school I would have fired the French teacher once it became clear that he was refusing to go along with a school policy. (In fact, I think a boss has the right to insist that a subordinate follows reasonable instructions even if they're not written down explicitly in a handbook).

We had moved away from the actual case(s) into hypotheticals - how I would address a priest. Of course, on another thread you and I got into the subject of what is the level of suffering we want to inflict, or see inflicted by others, on people with opposing beliefs - you mischaracterised my post there and refused to answer my direct question, so hats off to you for consistency.

aloyisious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122749044#Comment_122749044

With a statutory offence criminal conviction on record, he might find it hard to get a job in a teaching establishment should the original reason for being before the court be laid bare. A third remission for good behaviour in the prison leaves him with a 6 year hurdle to get over. I cant see the sentencing judge knock a year or so off the sentence given as EB is not into guilty pleas in exchange for a lighter sentence. Entry to the US where Evangelism is a big thing would be a NO NO.