Enoch Burke turns up to school again despite sacking - read OP before posting

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120148093#Comment_120148093

I've no intention in getting into "trans-wars"- life IMHO, is all too short for that.

I believe in "brain sex"- i.e. if you genuinely believe that you're female, then likely that's what you are, regardless of your body parts. However, I also believe that with social media these days, young people can get caught up in all sorts of beliefs or indeed habits, such as "ticks" which is a well known phenomenon in a small village in Wales if I remember rightly.

Science and religion have got along in Christianity for 100's of years - Burke will need to clarify his religion beliefs at some point but considering all religions have fluidity of some description , I'd doubt he'll be made an "exception"- otherwise, we'd all be arguing "an eye for an eye" when we hack off a burglars hand, and getting away with it. The law doesn't work like that. His religious beliefs are not in any way interfered with - he still has them. But that doesn't mean that holding such beliefs doesn't come with sacrifice. In this case, he's lost his job. That's the way of the world.

AllForIt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120148232#Comment_120148232

Thick skulls?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120092722#Comment_120092722

AllForIt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120148250#Comment_120148250

I believe in "brain sex"- i.e. if you genuinely believe that you're female, then likely that's what you are, regardless of your body parts.

The operative word their being 'believe'. Others don't believe the same as you do if that's still permissible on this topic.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120148425#Comment_120148425

What others believe is not really important. If a 6 foot 6 person with bursting biceps appearing as Rambo, turns around and says he's /she's female, fine with me, if they genuinely believe it. I'll call them Shirley if they want.

I don't know what Burke is on about in terms of his religious beliefs- Rambo wanting to be referred to as She or indeed They means nothing to my religious beliefs - it doesn't negate them one little bit wether I'm muslim jew hindu or even evangelical christian - nadda

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120145776#Comment_120145776

If I kicked really really hard you should I be charged with common assault or the lesser offence of animal cruelty?

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120145798#Comment_120145798

She should be identified as having a mental illness and be treated and medicated accordingly

AllForIt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120148458#Comment_120148458

What others believe is not really important. If a 6 foot 6 person with bursting biceps appearing as Rambo, turns around and says he's /she's female, fine with me, if they genuinely believe it. I'll call them Shirley if they want.

How on earth can you say that with a straight face.

You might know that Jordan Peterson became infamous for objecting to Canada's C-16 bill which would make misgendering a crime. If it wasn't for that we might never had heard of him and he would still be employed as a professor in a Canadian university.

So there is no way you can say that everyone can believe what they like or it doesn't matter what other people think when there is tension in respect of being forced to use pronouns that one doesn't believe in which was the ignition to this Burke fiasco.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120147100#Comment_120147100

I'm curious. What constitutes verbal abuse?

There's no reports of Enoch using foul or abusive language towards the Principal. Did he call her names, swear at her etc.? I've heard no reports to that effect. Does anyone actually know what he is supposed to have said to the Principal?

Did Burke just do something like his family did outside of the school meeting in Mullingar where they were shouting something stupid like 'Where is John Rogers' etc.? While it is annoying as fcuk, I wouldn't call that verbal abuse. They weren't screaming it in a menacing way. They were just repeating it loudly in a brainless fashion. Did Enoch do something similar at the function?

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120147701#Comment_120147701

Yes - because "it" is dehumanising

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120148547#Comment_120148547

Just? That isn't acceptable behaviour in any workplace.

Larbre34

Its not just the words.

You've seen them in full flight in Court, at inquests, at employment hearings, outside at protests. The harass and harangue people.

Obstructing people from their normal business, by shouting and talking over the routine conduct of that business, is verbal menace.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120148607#Comment_120148607

I'm not asking if it's acceptable. I'm asking if saying the same thing over and over loudly while using no threats, foul language etc. constitutes verbal abuse?

And I'm asking does anybody actually know what Burke is supposed to have said at the school function?

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120148215#Comment_120148215

Misgendering could be seen as a form of harassment if deliberate and ongoing - no different than badgering someone in other ways of harrassment- but i can see huge issues in the implementation of such a law in terms of context - calling a woman, who looks like a man, but genuinely identifies as a woman, a man, would be bullying in my view if you continued to refer to her as a man. But i'd see such legislation as being easily applied in the context of say employment- it would be harder to apply in situations like social media posts.

It's not daft legislation by any means in my view but no-one should lose their job for expressing their view for being anti- such legislation either- but I haven't read the story so don't know the full facts.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120148478#Comment_120148478

You’d have to find her first, which might be difficult, seeing as the whole story was fabricated.

You really should check out the facts before jumping in.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120148634#Comment_120148634

He harassed the principal at a school function to the extent that others had to physically step between him and the principal to protect her.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120148688#Comment_120148688

No one has lost their job for expressing an opinion. He lost his job for refusing to comply with a school policy, abusing the school principal at a school event and refusing to comply with a court order to stay away from the school.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120148634#Comment_120148634

The Principal does.

Why don't you email the school and ask him?

The School sought and secured an injunction, back in September, against Burke coming onto School premises, on the back of his conduct towards the School authorities in the matter.

Now, presumably his interactions with the Principal (and others) were presented to the Court, to substantiate the petition for the injunction.

The Court granted the injunction, as we know, so we can safely assume Mr Justice Quinn heard, and believed, the evidence of what Burke said.

That really is all you need to know and you'll have to accept it.

KaneToad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120148859#Comment_120148859

Stepping between Burke & principal may have been an unnecessary overreaction?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120148916#Comment_120148916

Really? Have you spoken to those who did the stepping in coming to your conclusion?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120148916#Comment_120148916

I mean there’s a video showing Gardai standing between the Burkes & Board of Management. There’s also reports from solicitors for the school that Enoch had followed them shouting to the point they rang the Gardai again. It’s not at all unbelievable to imagine Burkes behaviour warranted the principal feeling unsafe. He’s a bully towards women.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120148634#Comment_120148634

To the first paragraph, yes.

Loafing Oaf

He harassed the principal at a school function to the extent that others had to physically step between him and the principal to protect her.

The Principal does.

Why don't you email the school and ask him?

Mm, seems like the kid isn't the only nonbinary one in this story...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120149009#Comment_120149009

The Principal harrassed by Burke in June was the former Principal, Niamh McShane, who has since moved to another school.

They were replaced by the current Principal, Frank Milling.

Try to keep up.

It wasnt me123

What I find unbelievable in all of this is that it is almost impossible to sack teachers, why? Do they have an absolute right to be employed forever, regardless of their teaching abilities, etc.

This man refused a directive by his boss to address a student as they wished to be addressed - a student he didn’t teach and may never teach of have any relationship with at all, but publicly he denounced that directive - no consideration to the child or other students of the school. He then proceeded to harangue the principal publicly, and the BOM, ignore Court injunction, etc, and we are still wondering if he can get his job back or not?

Apart from the fact that the man is seriously deranged (Kathleen Zapone is a witch website) so should never have been employed as a teacher, how badly does a teacher have to act before common sense kicks in and they are fired. We seriously need to look at these ‘jobs for life’ scenarios, not just teachers, any job where nobody can be sacked.

This man and his family are toxic, I don’t think I’ve ever heard a positive comment from them, they are negative about everything that doesn’t follow their very strict set of guidelines. I certainly wouldn’t want him having any influence on any child.

History Queen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120149235#Comment_120149235

He has been fired though?

It wasnt me123

Yes but look at the drama to fire him. Why? When I worked in private sector, if I was rude to my manager I’d have been gone in a heartbeat, no injunctions, no BOM meetings, gone. There are rules, maybe not all written down, but rules of common courtesy, follow directives, don’t abuse your boss or the BOM, etc. There is something seriously wrong where an employee thinks they can do whatever they like, to whomever, and never have sanctions or dismissal. Crazy stuff.

astrofool

Teachers are a law unto themselves in this regard.

Even Enoch's sacking has the union worried.

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120148529#Comment_120148529

Beliefs don't hurt people, actions do. I couldn't care less if someone is a transphobe or racist or anything like that. So long as the belief stays in their heads, it's fine.

I do care if they go around making other peoples lives more difficult. I care if they campaign against the rights of minorities. I care if they abuse or make the lives of those people worse.

BTW, Peterson is an outlier. the vast majority of medical professionals and psychologists state that transgerder people should have the same rights as everyone else and that misgendering them is wrong. They also state that there's a higher risk of self harm amoungst trans people who aren't accepted in the gender they identify with.

peterson is the equivalent of a geologist who believes the earth is flat or an evolutionary biologist who believes the earth is 6000 years old. He's famous because bigots latched onto him. He's a deeply troubled man who has faced depression, anxiety, drug addiction and health problems which weren't helped by a bizarre diet.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120149268#Comment_120149268

Regardless of how easy you think it should be to sack someone, an employer must follow the disciplinary procedures laid out in their handbook/employee contract. It is not unusual for employees to win payouts in the WRC based on correct procedures not being followed. Had Bourke not been jailed for contempt, the disciplinary hearing would have been held months ago.

In your example, if you were sacked without due process being followed and the right of appeal, you could win a handy payout from the employer who sacked you in a heartbeat.

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120149235#Comment_120149235

And that's the crazy thing here. However one feels about the initial dispute, his behavior since then has been shocking. Turning up at the school. Ignoring a court order. Turning up again after getting jailed. Chanting outside the disciplinary procedure. Everything he's done since then should 100% be a fireable offence.