F.A. Cup 2023 Thread

Run Forest Run

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120676265#Comment_120676265

It's very easy to sit there and say Arsenal were never going to do this or that AFTER the fact... sure we can all do that. Doesn't make you seem any smarter at analysing the game.

And yes, the wheels did come off for Arsenal. They bottled it, and city capitalised quite ruthlessly in the end. Which in fairness you would expect them to. Plenty of people thought Arsenal would get over the line. It's not a popular stance to take now of course, and far more people try to act smart after the fact and pretend they always knew City would win it... like you!

Ah yes, you're trotting out the same old tired excuses for City's (and pep's) failure in Europe. Again, doesn't make you look very smart at analysing the game. "Maybe they have a jinx" 😂 Maybe they should spend 500 million on a few rabbits feet and lucky horse shoes so, rather than world class players.... ffs, do you want to clutch at any more straws there?

I never said they weren't dominant domestically. I said there was nothing particularly ground breaking about that feat, without also doing it in Europe. Plenty of teams in history have had dominant spells in their domestic championship.

Even Guardiola himself said recently, that it would not be enough for City to just win the CL once to be a great team. They would have to win it multiple times like other great sides. So clearly Pep understands the true meaning of what it takes to become a dominant team. Even if some of his fanboys don't quite understand the equation.

NIMAN

To be fair, Utd didn't really threaten City too much yesterday.

Once City took the lead, they didn't really have to get out of 2nd gear. Even when Utd equalised, you still had the feeling they weren't going to win.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120675912#Comment_120675912

The greatest advantage cheque book Pep has is that the club make it abundantly clear that he is the boss and will always be backed no matter what. So he can do whatever he wants to players and there will never be unrest, because the players know at all times that they will lose a battle with him.

Decides he doesn't want a player, he dumps him and buys another, and the group can't complain because they know they can all be dumped as well.

Compare that to his rivals, they cannot just dump top players when they feel like it. They need to manage the squads, massage egos, try and get underperforming players to find their form again. If Klopp fell out with Robertson that would be a huge problem for Liverpool, but Pep falls out with Cancelo and Cancelo is gone ten minutes later.

Pep doesn't have to manage ego's, they do what he wants or they get replaced. That gives him total control, and by definition a squad of players who do what he says when he says it. How could he not have a high performing team in those circumstances?

You would respect that level of control if the culture was created organically within the club. At City it wasn't, it was just bought and continues to be bought by financial doping.

Run Forest Run

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120676390#Comment_120676390

Very reminiscent of the Newcastle team that United beat in the FA Cup final in 1999. Result never looked that much in doubt.

That's the only real similarity in this treble attempt though. The Arsenal side in 99 was superior to this Arsenal team. And the Bayern team in 99 was a superior outfit to this Inter Milan team. (obviously you would have to wait and see what they achieve in subsequent years, but as things stand)

Any treble is an impressive achievement though. So if City do pull it off, you've got to give them their due credit. Regardless of money or relative opposition strength.

Fitz*

Horrible actions by that Man Utd fan yesterday who chose to buy a Man Utd jersey and use that to mock innocent fans who died in a stadium tragedy nearly 25 years ago. He chose the biggest game of Man Utd's season to do that. What a pathetic low life, unfortunately not the first of the kind, and won't be the last. Good to see he was arrested.

El Gato De Negocios

Seen that alright, some people are just ****. And usually those types are the same who would be up in arms if opposition fans were using Munich as a point scoring exercise. You'd really wonder what goes through some peoples heads, supposed adults, to not only conceive such an idea but to actually go through with it and on such a public occasion. Brainless doesn't come close.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120676323#Comment_120676323

Who was saying it? No one was really saying Arsenal could do it. Maybe a couple of ex Arsenal players wrote a column saying that Arsenal might do it, but everyone else knew it was City’s to throw away.

City could capitalise because they didn’t have as tired a squad as anyone else. That’s not even arguable.

Why all the personal attacks saying that it doesn’t make me look very smart at analysing the game? There’s some facts in there, as well as opinion, but no need for the personal attack.

Your exact words are:

It should almost be a formality to win the league and CL every season. But we're not seeing that level of dominance. (yet)

So don’t turn around and say

I never said they weren't dominant domestically

Congratulations on the wins, but really, the trophies mean nothing when they’ve been won by cheating.

I can recognise that this City are a good team, but they’re. A good team because of money. They will never be a great team until they’re winning titles, but on a level playing field with everyone else.

SlickRic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120676418#Comment_120676418

This is perfectly put.

Fitz*

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120676805#Comment_120676805

They are such horrible people. I've just seen a clip with a Man City fans bringing in an actual aeroplane to Wembley and chooses to use that to celebrate a goal. How did that even get in? Why does he chose to think of that, let alone do it.

The failure of the FA to clamp down on chanting and actions like this is creating an acceptable of it. This season was very very bad for it. It's getting worse.

Run Forest Run

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120676830#Comment_120676830

Plenty of people were saying Arsenal could take the title. They weren't suggesting they were favourites, but they had a decent chance of doing it.

And they did have a good chance. But they threw it away. I'd put it more down to experience rather than squad depth tbh. But they definitely bottled it, and many people were in agreement with this at the time.

Don't give it out buddy, if you can't take it.

No-one who knows anything about football thought Arsenal could push them to the end.

They very clearly did push them for a large chunk of the season, and were leading the table for longer than any other team in history that didn't go on to win the title. 93% of the season was the stat I think. Correct me if I'm wrong on that. They fell away badly in the end, but you can't really say they didn't give them a good race for most of the season.

I was referring to dominance in BOTH domestic and CL... not just domestic on it's own. So get your facts straight. I never once suggested that City weren't dominant domestically. Clearly, your powers of comprehension aren't the best. (Don't be insulted, it's just a fact. You misinterpreted or misread my post).

After 28 games Arsenal were 8 points ahead of City. Of course there were people saying they could win the league ffs!

They then managed 15 points from their last available 30.

They fell apart when the pressure was on. Understandable. It was a new experience and City were relentless. Arteta seemed to crack under the pressure too.

SlickRic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120677013#Comment_120677013

City won every game though until they won the thing.

they've normalised that. people forget that wasn't normal before this era. when Utd did similar in 09, it was big news.

now it's expected. i wonder why.

LuckyLloyd

City’s ability to be relentless year after year is the issue. Slickric is right - there has been very little jeopardy over the past couple of months. Yesterday they were in control for most of the game, with extra gears to go to if necessary.

They will probably win next week, win in controlled fashion and be labelled the greatest team ever.

Where does this leave the game? For me it jams everything up, we are stuck. There are three disingenuous streams of conversation:

• City fans talking up their “execution” and talking down the level of dominance
• Opposition fans relentlessly harping on the obvious cheating at play
• Media managing to talk for hours and pages without referencing the elephant in the room

It’s just completely toxic, and with no end in sight bar an artificial off field conclusion at the hands of an independent panel. Or if Guardiola decides he’s done enough.

Utd played reasonably well and were let down by their Goalkeeper. Arsenal had a spirited season but fell apart at the end, under the relentless pressure City bring to bear. Liverpool have demonstrated in recent years what it takes to compete with City, but have only stolen a couple of domestic trophies.

And sure, City have yet to do it in Europe but it has felt increasingly inevitable and the complete demolishment of that storied Real side maybe heralds a new era of dominance on that front also.

I think we’ll view this as a very dark time for the game, at least I hope we will in years to come.

Run Forest Run

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120677387#Comment_120677387

The fact that an unfancied Arsenal team, with far less resources put it up to them for most of the season and could have won it... this tells me that City are not some unbreakable force.

That's sport, you've got to find the answers. Many managers/teams were able to rise to the challenge to find solutions to defeat Pep's teams in one-off matches because his teams are a bit of a one trick pony (even if it is a very impressive trick)... hence why his teams struggle so badly to win the CL - even going back to his Bayern stint. Pep doesn't really have adequate answers when teams with quality sit deep and counter effectively.

I have no doubt that the other top teams in the EPL will challenge their dominance and consistency in the league. If Arsenal can do it for almost an entire season, then the others can do it too. You can't blame city for ruining the league, just because they are hyper consistent. That was also Ferguson's greatest strength when habitually winning leagues.

I would be reasonably confident of Inter Milan doing a job on them and winning the final next week - as again it's a one off game, and there is a very clear formula for defeating Pep's teams in that format of competition. Which would increase the pressure and scrutiny on them next season, with lots of questions being asked about Pep and whether his players can deal with the expectations. This is how you often see chinks in the armour of even the best teams... it happens in every generation.

If they pull off the treble, there will be an even bigger target on their back next season. Any drop from that lofty standard will be seen as a crisis by many people. That's the problem with setting the bar at a certain level, you can't be seen to be dropping down. This is why I was surprised with Pep admitting they need to win multiple CL titles... he was being honest I think. And I agree with him. But still piling pressure on his players over the next few seasons. That might not end well for him to publicly state such ambitions.

SlickRic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120677580#Comment_120677580

You're ignoring the nuance of why City are continually able to break points records, while challenging for everything, keeping the first team top notch, the management top notch, the academy with stockpiles of players etc etc etc.

Fergie's Utd were not the same, and as much as I despise that club, to pretend they're the same as this City is ridiculous. I've seen arguments like 'they bought the best CB' (Stam) or the best striker (Cole) as if that's proof that they're the same.

City's systematic financial doping means they can cheat their finances, plough those resources across scouting, recruitment, stadium improvements, management team retention, agent fees and the rest.

And it's culminated in a season where there has been no emotion or risk since February. That barely happened in any Utd season. I never once thought Arsenal would do it. If you've watched football long enough, you know how overmatched they were. One Saliba injury did them.

And there is no guarantee anyone can challenge them. Liverpool are literally the only team that have over the last 5 years - where City have actually sweated in the league. Claiming Arsenal did this season is laughable. They didn't to any reasonable degree. It was over with 5 games to spare.

Run Forest Run

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120679312#Comment_120679312

There's no "nuance"... city rack up lots of points, because they're great at putting weaker teams to the sword consistently. Very much like Ferguson's United teams. But also similarly to Ferguson's teams, they struggle against better teams in Europe who intelligently counteract their style of play. Because they really don't have a plan B.

No, it's not laughable to suggest that Arsenal gave them a decent challenge this season. That's just your opinion. But you are dead wrong on that score. Arsenal fell apart badly in the end, but the fact that a team with much smaller resources could actually put it up to them for most of the season is plenty proof that City are FAR from being an unbreakable monopoly in the EPL. They're lucky really that clubs like Man Utd have been in a rebuilding phase after Ferguson retiring and Arsenal losing Wenger etc.... just like Ferguson was a touch lucky that Liverpool's golden period of genius managers dried up in the early 90's.

Timing and luck can be very important in sport. Not that I'm suggesting Guardiola is purely a lucky manager - he's obviously a very talented manager too. But this Man City period of dominance will come to an end eventually, I'm quite confident of that. It's actually what makes the EPL a fascinating competition to watch for me... I think we'll witness a big challenge to City over the next few years.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120679496#Comment_120679496

Probably Newcastle, or if United gets bought out by a petrol state.

LuckyLloyd

You find the possibility that City will maybe face a big challenge in the next few years "fascinating" viewing? That sounds disingenuous tbh.

~Rebel~

Also, dominance is relative... I don't think it should be viewed as always-winning (even though they've a habit of that too), but rather always being right up there, endlessly. That's the ground that Man City have really broken. In the Champions League every single year since they first qualified, and honestly you'd put your house on them doing the same every year going forward. Everyone else drops in and out, and we see the change of decent competition - but they're relentlessly present.

Even the one year another team managed to pull off a 99 point monster of a season to stop them winning the league, City - with a very disappointing season by their standards - still easily took 2nd place. It's hard to ever see them not being right up there, forcing everyone else to pull off miraculous stuff to get past them.

jacool

@Bobeagleburger @Run Forest Run

When Arsenal were way ahead, they had not played Man City* in the league.

Going into this season, Man City* had beaten Arsenal 10 times in a row in the league, so anyone who knew anything about that, was most likely not surprised to see that go to 12 times in a row.

RFR you said it yourself "There's no "nuance"... city rack up lots of points, because they're great at putting weaker teams to the sword consistently."

Ergo, Arsenal are a weaker team.

FintanMcluskey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120674340#Comment_120674340

Agree completely here.

Behind the scenes, Soccer is perhaps morally bankrupt sport of all. Still a great game to watch though.

The fans most annoyed about City are the ones most used to glory with their own teams & in particular Man united, who are now perhaps on the verge of loosing the exclusivity of the treble & still not capable of challenging City, despite United being Europe's biggest spenders over the past decade.

I doubt many Aston Villa or Sunderland fans give much of a hoot about the current scenario with City.

Taking just the 90 minute games & ignoring behind the scenes, this City team are incredible, but they won't dominate forever.

SlickRic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120680867#Comment_120680867

it is all morally bankrupt, of course it is. but there are levels.

and if Villa and Sunderland fans don't care, they should. the likelihood of them getting near the top lessens if a financial cheat embeds itself at the top of the food chain through said cheating. that's one spot you can never get, or you at least have to wait a generation to come around again to have a chance of getting.

as we've seen, Liverpool can fall. Utd can fall. Chelsea can fall. Arsenal can fall. because normal football cycles do actually apply to them.

Suvarnabhumi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120681602#Comment_120681602

Absolutely this.

This is a watershed moment for football. If the city cheating isn't dealt with in an appropriate way, the ESL will happen without a doubt. I wonder how Villa fans will react then when they're not part of it and their TV money drops dramatically. Once the ESL starts, it's game over for most clubs. They'll just become feeder clubs for those involved in it, if they're lucky enough to find a player that an ESL participant wants.

FintanMcluskey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120682083#Comment_120682083

Once the ESL starts, it's game over for most clubs. They'll just become feeder clubs for those involved in it, if they're lucky enough to find a player that an ESL participant wants.

It's been that way for Villa since the establishment of the Premier League 30+ years ago.

They feed the best of their players to the top 4.

POKERKING

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120682165#Comment_120682165

Correct and if FFP had its way, you would only ever see the original top 4 compete and no one would else would have a chance. That would suit their fans perfectly and there would be no talk of any kind of unfairness then.

Some clubs in the prem done very well out of city post take over originally and it was all fine then because there was no threat. Arsenal for example got silly money they wouldnt of got elsewhere for likes of Toure, Adebayor etc. No one complained then because no one thought city had a long term plan and vision and importantly didnt think they could execute it and before long would drop city quickly and move onto their next play thing. Didnt quite work out like that….

McFly85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120682905#Comment_120682905

If any other club had over 100 charges of years of breaking league rules thrown at them there would be absolutely talk of unfairness, and rightly so.

And I reckon nobody complained back then because nobody was aware to the extent that City were breaking the rules. It’s all well and good saying they had a vision but relentless overspending should be punished.

City may not like the rules but that’s not an excuse to break them.

FintanMcluskey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120682905#Comment_120682905

Correct and if FFP had its way, you would only ever see the original top 4 compete and no one would else would have a chance.

Exactly.

FFP is designed to retain success among the already successful. Its nothing got to do with competition.

Very good point made by Paul Merson, regarding G.Nevilles recent fantasy combined treble team

I saw the other day Gary Neville's combined team and only three City players got in. If only three of them get in, that means it's a bigger achievement to manage it.

So despite City buying the best players of all time as some claim, some who played in the team claim United had 8 better players in 1999.

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120682905#Comment_120682905

Except that's not true. The 'original' top 4's dominant run was actually pretty short (05/06 to 08/09). Otherwise, the top 4 always churned from season to season, with teams dropping out and rising up. City holding one spot at ransom since they first qualified years ago is actually what limits others having a chance. Every other top 4 team has dropped out multiple times - except City who have it locked down. It was demonstrably easier for teams to work up to a top 4 spot before City effectively made it City+3.

<edit> I see another post above misses the point of City's dominance... we've always been used to talking about great teams, as that was always normal. You could name the definitive 11 easily enough for most of these 'great teams'. That's what City have changed - they have a great squad. Arsenal lost Saliba and fell apart. You can take anyone out of City's 11 and they have someone else right there waiting to come in. Dumped quality like Sterling, Jesus, Fernandinho Cancelo, and Zinchenko in one year - no bother, plenty more to take their places without missing a beat.

Utds treble in 99 is a much bigger achievement than the probable City treble. Doesn't even come close.

FintanMcluskey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120683167#Comment_120683167

Is the general agreement not that the United team in 1999 is a better team than the current City team?

POKERKING

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120683065#Comment_120683065

City nearly missed out in pelligrinis last season, only secured it on the final day, if United had of had anything about them they would have secured that spot as city were awful that season and despite what people say about the squad pep inherited it was at the end of its cycle then.

Your point on squads is not true either, Man united won the cl as part of their treble without their first choice centre midfield with their goals scored by two substitute’s that were top class. Man United had a top class squad back then and Man city have a top class squad now. Most great teams of the past 30 years had great subs they could call on, its not exclusive to city now. Hell most teams in the prem(esp top 8) have huge top quality squads now with most having two internationals for each position.

I am missing your point(or its not clear) on the players mentioned, they had come to their end of their cycle for one reason or another(in ferns case he pract retired). All those players were replaced with cheaper less experienced players which is normal for most teams? Zinchenko replaced by Sergio Gomez, jesus by haaland(abeit that whole deal is more expensive than jesus), sterling by alvarez(who was an untried tested kid from argenitna). Thats quality recruitment all done with a net profit on transfer fees. But when city do it its not? I dont understand this point.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120683302#Comment_120683302

No. They just didn't cheat their way to titles.

Ignoring all the alleged cheating... Who is the best team? it's all very subjective. Depends on who you talk to.

SlickRic

There's a deliberate attempt, constantly, to label critics of City as bemoaning them being rich. When that simply isn't the case.

The only argument I regularly hear is 'well, Utd were rich'. As I've said, that's a false equivalence, and is purposely done to divert your attention from the fact that the issue is the cheating.

They cheat, therefore they're able to flush their system full of funds to have the best of everything - players, youth setup, management, stadium upgrades - without any falloff in anything. Yet it's amazing how no other club is able to do everything at that standard consistently, every year, always competing, for everything. Not one. Every single club goes in cycles bar this iteration of City, whose only 'blip' came after 2 perfect Liverpool seasons got one title.

IncognitoMan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120682905#Comment_120682905

I'll never get over the irony of City fans trying to claim that FFP is/was the issue standing in the way of new clubs competing when the situation has never been worse for a new club to come along and challenge.

There has never been less opportunity for a smaller club to win a PL or FA Cup etc... Or less opportunity for them to get a CL spot.

Because the club currently at the top of the tree is NOT playing by the same rules everyone else has to follow.

The idea of FFP is sound - force clubs to grow within their means, focus on long term stability over instantly jumping to the top. To claim it is a bigger hindrance to a new team challenging than the state owned clubs is wild.

Now to get into the Champions league you have to finish above the 3 biggest clubs in England plus 2 state owned unlimited budget clubs and Chelsea who were funded by Russian oil for 20 years.

...and sometimes Spurs 😂

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120683458#Comment_120683458

For every other team a wholesale switch between 'cycles' leads to a stutter. Most teams can't just lose 5 regulars and keep on truckin' like nothing happened. City just roll on through, with their immense depth of quality making it easy to bed so many new guys in without pressure. They'll likely let Gundogan go this summer too, and maybe another one or two, and it won't matter a jot. This is what will keep happening. This is why they've been a guaranteed mainstay in the CL, and will continue to be. There's just no stakes anymore.

Suvarnabhumi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120682905#Comment_120682905

Do you thing it's fair that 1 club is in breach of the financial regulations? Forget about what club it is for a minute.

POKERKING

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120684709#Comment_120684709

Of course there is stakes. You have ignored my counters to your other points.

How many times did Arsenal miss out on CL under Wenger? How many times did united miss out during fergies time(in the new format)? Nothing was said then about lack of jeopardy or no one else having a chance qualifying.

Once pep leaves it will all change anyway.

The recruitment under Pep has mostly been brilliant and he has built his team in a way that allows the loss of key players not impact the quality of the team. But there will never be any credit fr that.

POKERKING

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120684995#Comment_120684995

I enjoyed Jack Walker doing it in the 90s and I enjoyed Roman doing it in the 00s immensely, I thought it was great for football. The main(not the only before the sportswashing brigade jump in) difference between then and now is the elite lobbied successfully to get rules brought in to protect themselves and prevent further competition.

My opinion(high level) is money into football=good, money out of football=bad.

Liam O

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120689936#Comment_120689936

Roman and Walker is such a level of red herring. They didn't cheat the system, they took advantage of what it was at the time. Man City are cheating.

Suvarnabhumi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120689936#Comment_120689936

Textbook city fan reply :)

Ignored the question asked too ;)

FintanMcluskey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120689920#Comment_120689920

How many times did united miss out during fergies time(in the new format)?

United finished in the top 4 for 22 seasons in a row between 1992 & 2014.

They finished outside the top 2 in just 3 of those seasons.

FintanMcluskey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120684995#Comment_120684995

2 premier league clubs are in breach of FFP

Fitz*

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120689920#Comment_120689920

Arsenal missed out on CL a lot of years as they put their money into building a new stadium, therefore letting the quality of recruitment slide. They couldn't keep up with the spending power of Chelsea & Man City's new money.

'Traditional' clubs can afford to redevelop infrastructure, or spend on recruitment / wages, but not both. Man Utd chose wages/recruitment over Old Trafford. Arsenal chose stadium over recruitment. Spurs chose stadium over recruitment. Lately, Liverpool chose stadium over recruitment.

On the other side, Chelsea can't do anything with a stadium now that Roman has left so are concentrating on recruitment. Man City were given a new stadium could concentrate on recruitment. They are able to simultaneously build new seats while recruiting new players, with no jeopardy on players not being successful as they can rectify that in the next window. Others cant.

POKERKING

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690299#Comment_120690299

The question around arsenal was about Wenger. I am guessing the answer is close to zero. City will fall back into the same category as Chelsea(to an extent) when Pep leaves imo.

Manchester united abs can do both, they generate enough revenue there owners choose to take money out and neglect their stadium/infrastructure. A half decent owner wouldnt have done that.