National Football League 2023

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120406224#Comment_120406224

Hindsight is often used as an excuse( as in people commenting afterwards) to cover up what are fundamental errors. Look if Cluxton is in temporary because they lack cover for two to three game ( final league game, league final and start of Leinster champions) as Commerford is injured ya that is grand and dandy.

However of it's a longer term vision for this season and onto next year it fundamentally flawed. Farrell is looking to older players to provide solutions instead of moving on. He is adopting a one season win strategy which is doomed to long-term failure.

History tells us different. Breaking up sucessfull teams is hard but age suggests not doing it ends in failure.

Age is against Fenton, Kilkenny, Small etc. They have something to contribute but Fitzsimmon and Rock are probably not good enyatvthis stage of there career, McCarthy may have a good end of season like last year but older players pick up injuries easier.

The Round Robin section is where Dublin will struggle this year

dxhound2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120406261#Comment_120406261

No big furore, teams can do what they like when they earn their place in the final. The calendar is fixed, and if Mayo had wanted to avoid being in the final, they could have. If anything, I would have expected a little bit of a furore out of Armagh, for Mayo not going all out to beat Monaghan. According to RTE.

"Mayo, who had already qualified for next weekend's League Final against Galway, fielded a shadow selection but still looked like they might condemn the visitors to relegation when they drew level in the 65th minute."

MacDanger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120407014#Comment_120407014

Not sure if you misunderstood my post or what - say Mayo were to field a weakened team next Sunday because they were prepping for the Roscommon match the following weekend, you don't think there would be a furore?

dxhound2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120407032#Comment_120407032

No furore whatsoever. They had used 30 players in the first 5 games, so who is to say which of those should not get a place on Sunday? I don't see much disadvantage in having to play their next game 7 days ahead instead of 8.

(The Western People 10 March).

Slowly but surely, Mayo are creating serious squad depth. On Sunday, Rory Byrne became the 30th member of Kevin McStay’s panel to get game time in this National Football League campaign. That is quite a number given we have only played five games. It’s also an impressive stat as such changes do not seem to have caused major fluctuations in Mayo’s performance levels so far this year. Mayo have been consistently good, sometimes excellent, and a good bit more impressive than any other team in the land to date.

MacDanger

Again, you seem to be misunderstanding me here - "I don't see much disadvantage in having to play their next game 7 days ahead instead of 8" - I'm not talking about 8 days, I'm talking about 14 days - "no championship matches are scheduled for the weekend after the league finals or else just do away with the finals".

I'm also talking in general terms going forward rather than about Mayo this year.

Personally I think it'd be big news in the media if a team decided to send out a weakened team for the league final(s) or worse, decide to concede the match.

It won't happen this year but if championship fixtures continue to be arranged for the following week, it's inevitable that some team will do so in the future IMO.

legendary.xix

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120402849#Comment_120402849

They should. The provincial championships could be reduced by one week to make the gap:

1. Leinster & Ulster Round 1. Connacht & Munster quarter-finals.

2. Leinster & Ulster quarter-finals. Connacht & Munster semi-finals.

3. Leinster & Ulster semi-finals.

4. Connacht & Munster finals.

5. Leinster & Ulster finals.

dxhound2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120407300#Comment_120407300

Also in the same boat as Mayo, are Sligo and Wicklow, who have Championship fixtures the same weekend as Mayo. And it could been Armagh and/or Antrim, if they had done better in the League. Or Tipperary, Waterford, Clare and Cork if they had done better. And any one or two of five other Leinster counties apart from Wicklow. Everyone knows the schedule, and maybe the cute ones avoid getting to League Finals.

But I think Wicklow won't be complaining. A good run out against Sligo could sharpen them up for the game with Carlow on 09 April.

MacDanger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120407878#Comment_120407878

Not sure if you missed the part about me "talking in general terms going forward rather than about Mayo this year"

But let's take Wicklow as an example and asume that McConville (rightly or wrongly) decides that the Carlow game is more important than a D4 title and he plays a 2nd string team in the final - IMO that devalues the competition when it's easily avoidable as per @YabaDabaDooley's post yesterday.

All it takes is one or two managers in that situation to take that approach and it makes a f*ck of the finals when there's really no need to put teams in that position. I don't think there's any real downsides to making such a change.

Anyway, I'll leave it at that.

dxhound2005

If Mayo wanted to avoid being in the Final, they could have sent out their second string against other counties, as soon as safety in Division 1 was assured. Or not tried as hard to get more wins. It seems they were determined to get a place in the Final, and it would be illogical not to try to win it now.

What they did in the Monaghan game once they were assured of a place in the Final, demonstrates this as well. They were saving themselves for the Final. The unfortunate side effect for Armagh is that Mayo devalued the League by not trying as hard to beat Monaghan. That was Mayo's only loss in the League.

SqueakyKneecap

It sounded like a half-hearted request from Mayo in fairness. I don't think there'll be too much annoyance over it, especially when they could rest lads yesterday and still could rest lads for the final.

Always_Running

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120408073#Comment_120408073

The request came from the players going by the statement, no request came from the Mayo county board or McStay probably because they knew they wouldn't get it changed. Most of those Mayo players was rested yesterday and i would expect a first choice 15 will start the final on Sunday.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120407980#Comment_120407980

Let's say Wicklow do that.

Then they would be fuking idiots because a trophy is worth way more than the big cup of nothing awaiting them in Leinster.

It amazes me how many no hope teams cling to the provinces and Sam.

I agree there needs to be more room between league and championship. Having the hurling final the same day as the football championship starts is just bad promotion wise on top of everything else.

dxhound2005

The other side of the coin is that some teams will be waiting a month to get Championship action. And then have two games in succesive weekends, if they win. That is the way the calendar is, and I would not want to be the one to redesign it based on which teams got to League Finals. It is trying to solve a "problem" which might not exist in some years. The teams due out 2 weeks after the League Finals in the new calendar, might not include any finalists. Assuming that the new calendar would be drawn up before the League, and not wating till the League is over to decide Championship dates for the League finalists.

An example is the Ulster QF between Down and Donegal on 23 April, with the winners having a semi-final on the 30th. Who could say when the fixtures were being drawn up, that either or both of those teams could be in a League Final next weekend? And that would be fine, since they both would get 3 weeks to "recover".

But equally Antrim and/or Armagh could be in a Final, and they have to play in the Ulster Preliminary game on 08 April. There is an argument both ways, that being fresh is good, or that being battle hardened in matches is good.

flasher0030

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120407878#Comment_120407878

That's a strange comment - "Maybe the cute ones avoid getting to the league final". There are only two main GAA competitions in football - the championship and the league. So you think there will be managers giving the their team talk in the lead up to one of those competitions - Lads, I know ye are all playing for places, and I know it's fabulous to win a national competition (which has been won 9 out of 10 times in the past 10 years by the elite of Dublin or Kerry) - but whatever ye do, don't win it!!!!"

dxhound2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120409782#Comment_120409782

If they know they will be in Championship action a week after the League Final. And they consider that an impossible schedule to cope with, which is the argument being made. I don't think it is impossible.

MacDanger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120409614#Comment_120409614

I agree that they would be stupid to do that but if they (or any other team in such a scenario - and there are plenty of plausible scenarios) choose to do so, it will devalue the competition - the potential for this to happen is easily removed by having a week gap between the league finals and the first round of the championship. I've yet to hear the reasoning as to why there can't be a week break built into the schedule

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120409864#Comment_120409864

There should be a break.

To be honest I think it's the Provincials that are about to become very devalued. Counties are just coming out of the league and will have an eye on the group stage.

MacDanger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120409883#Comment_120409883

I think a lot will depend on how this year goes - if winning/not winning the provincials is seen as a benefit this year, it will have a big impact on how teams view it next year I'd say.

I think topping the group will be very important though, you'll have a week break while the 2nd/3rd teams have the playoff

dxhound2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120409864#Comment_120409864

The one which isn't plausible is that Mayo will be saving themselves for the Championship. They went all out to get to the Final, and it would make no sense not to try to win it. They could have avoided being in the Final, and be no worse off, since obviously there is no promotion in Division 1.

As it turns out, Dublin v Derry, and Cavan v Fermanagh will have a break before their Championships. But will that make them take their Finals any more seriously? The only aim for teams in the lower divisions is to get promotion, and the general public will not remember them long for winning a League Final in Divison 3 or 4. There is some cache in winning the Division 1 Final, so Mayo and Galway will both be trying.

There is a break of a week, is it not a two week break you want?

MacDanger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120409943#Comment_120409943

Like I said yesterday, "Not sure if you missed the part about me "talking in general terms going forward rather than about Mayo this year""

Let it go

ebbsy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120407980#Comment_120407980

I certainly hope McConville plays a full strength team on Saturday - I believe he will.

As other posters have said on here, starting the championship a week after the league is not right.

Also only the winners of the provinces should be given "Sam status" - the league is a much better indication of whether you have the ability to play in it or not.

dxhound2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120409973#Comment_120409973

I think it is fair to use the particular (from all 4 Divisions) this year to examine the proposal. And like I said, in other years no League finalists might have a Championship game for two week anyway on the Master Fixtures List. Would your general plan involve a Master Fixtures List from before the League?

MacDanger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120410007#Comment_120410007

Yes, there definitely should be a masters fixtures list from the beginning of the year, it would be unworkable otherwise in terms of planning. It's just a matter of putting in an extra week in there after the league finals imo.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120409943#Comment_120409943

It depends on the team. Limericks promotions are almost always in 2nd and I'de rather the trophy in the long run. I don't see why Fermanagh people for instance would not be mad for a trophy.

A team like Dublin obviously won't care.

dxhound2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120410125#Comment_120410125

That's an important clarification. No doubt it could be done, but probably would be easier to do if the AI Final was on 20 September instead of 30 July. Maybe there was a two week break in those years, but I did not check. You won't like me going back the the particular, but it is 3 teams out of 16 who are out on 09 April that are being affected this year. Let me suggest that if the Connacht draw had been Mayo or Roscommon against any of Sligo, Leitrim, London or New York on 09 April, we would not be having this discussion. Remembering that Roscommon could also have made the League Final.

I could not even name a Wicklow or Sligo player, never mind nominate their best 15. If either or both use the Final as a training game, I don't care. Nor do I care if Galway decide not to go full tilt on Sunday, or any or all of Derry, Dublin, Cavan or Fermanagh. They don't need to worry about a game on 09 April, but they could have their own reasons for taking a certain approach to the games.

There are 2 dead weekends in the League, one in February, one in March, but they seem to be exclusive Hurling League dates. Maybe the League could run for one week shorter, and leave 09 April as the date for those 8 Championship games. But I would not like to have to do the exercise, remembering the considerations that also have to be given to club games.

manofwisdom

Having the championship start next week totally devalues the league finals. What was HQ thinking when they scheduled it that way?

Worse of all is Sligo, trips to Croke Park is rare enough for them nevermind picking up a trophy there but they can't go all out to win because they'll be flying to London on Thursday or Friday for a banana skin championship encounter.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120418148#Comment_120418148

I doubt it's the league that will lose out

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-41103556.html

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120418274#Comment_120418274

Because of the new structure the provincial championships are now the least infulencial that they have ever been in determining the All Ireland winner.

But it's only really applicable to Div 1 and high Div 2 teams

They know they will be in the Sam McGuire groups regardless.

But for Div 3 and 4 it's different, they need a provincial final to be sure of a Sam McGuire place.

So for Sligo at the weekend they know that they are in the Sam McGuire if they beat Leitrim or London or New York, which they are well capable of doing. Winning Div 4 and losing to Leitrim, London or New York gets them feck all.

Mayo on the other hand are guaranteed at least a 3rd seed and more than likely a qf place at least.

So which would offer most disappoinment.

I'd wager that not making the provincial final would be more disappointing for Sligo even if they win the Div 4 final, while losing the Div 1 final to Galway would be more disappointing for Mayo than losing to Roscommon in Connacht and still going deep in the championship.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120418368#Comment_120418368

The Sligo situation won't happen that often though. For the most part I think the Provinces will become like the hurling league where teams use it as a warm up.

I also think teams should take the trophy over possible entry into a competition they can't win. I really don't understand why being in Sam is that big a deal.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120410702#Comment_120410702

They are mad for a trophy, but for a meaningful trophy, and nobody gives a damn about the mickey mouse trophies. Lift the cup on the day, give a cheer and then everybody forgets about it immediately. Its why the B competitions never work.

I have never yet met a player who talked proudly about their lower division medals. They are something you pick up along the way, not something you dream of.

You talk as if players are children who will clap and cheer if you give them a shiny cup with a star painted on it, and the smaller counties as if they should just accept their place in the order of things and stop bothering the real counties.

Tell me this though, if the division 3 trophy is a trophy worth winning, what is the name of the trophy?