ETFs taxation in ireland

maninasia

Probably more concerned of lack of diversification amongst the general public i.e. too much money in property.

Supercell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121577584#Comment_121577584

Good to see that this is getting senior eyes on it.

The line below makes me roll my eyes however...

While there was a consensus from those that responded to our public consultation that the taxation regime presented a significant barrier to retail investment, there was also broad recognition that addressing the tax issues would not, in and of itself, attract new retail investors.

Oh really??!!, that's the number one bloody thing that would in of itself help attract retail investors into ETF's!!! Whoever wrote this has an agenda. They are giving ETF's lip service but they have no intention of changing anything unless forced to, that's my take.

Then they follow up with the following patronising bullcrap, apparently retail is too stupid to understand ETF's without "education" and this is why they are not buying them, on what fcking planet is the author on?

The majority of respondents agreed that financial literacy and education would be fundamental to growing Ireland’s retail investor base, both from an investor protection perspective as well as raising awareness of savings and investment options.

techman1

Any updates on the department of finance review of ETFs taxation?

antimatterx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121816197#Comment_121816197

Due in the summer

techman1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121579096#Comment_121579096

thanks. I don't understand all the genuflecting to Pascal donoghue, i wouldn't regard him as a very good minister at all, when asked any question he merely repeats the question again and then says something inane at the end like "and that is why this government is in favour of ........" without actually saying anything, When asked about ETF taxation a question that actually came from his FF colleague Jim Callaghan he said incorrectly that the "deemed taxation" was there so that the government could collect taxation on funds where no income tax would otherwise be paid. However this is wrong as the "deemed disposal" also applies to ETfs that pay out dividends for which the government also collects tax every year. Of course none of the innumerate socialists in the dail pulled him up on it

antimatterx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121816387#Comment_121816387

He's been a top finance minister. Very safe.

PapaBooje

Is it possible to buy them using single broker? Where are you getting them?

HGVRHKYY

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121816387#Comment_121816387

Agreed, I hate Paschal. How could FG possibly consider themselves the party for the middle class "people who get up early in the morning", only to have a finance minister who does absolutely nothing in terms of enabling individuals to have more liberty in growing their wealth with things like ETFs, which are commonplace in any other developed country. The government interference on investments in Ireland makes me hate the place, and this is all under FG and FF, parties you'd expect to have more right leaning policies for things like this. Cannot imagine how bad it could be under the even more left leaning idealistic parties.

techman1

The government interference on investments in Ireland makes me hate the place, and this is all under FG and FF, 

FF actually have a better record regarding giving tax breaks to working people than FG, they were the ones that reduced personal taxation and CGT tax rated in the late 90s and 2000s.

It was Jim O Callaghan of FF who asked pascal Donohoe the ETF question in the Dail, so obviously he understands the question. Pascal is just there to keep all the socialists in the government happy, there will always be plenty of money for social welfare, ngo wages and other talking shops. I heard they are going to employ 30 people to convert government jargon into plain English, but sure they probably have many more employed converting government output into US jargon tech speak. Pascal also there to provide cover for seriously incompetent and gaff prone ministers like Helen mcentee

Cookiepus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121323755#Comment_121323755

Could you tell me specifically which one is the JP Morgan Investment Trust?

On Degiro search i'm getting 10 different options-all of which a categorized as ETF's not individual stocks.

for example - 'iShares JP Morgan $ EM Bond UCITS ETF USD Dis'

Thanks

Cookie

Supercell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121923044#Comment_121923044

JAM - https://markets.ft.com/data/investment-trust/tearsheet/summary?s=JAM:LSE, its not an ETF, its a closed end fund or Investment trust, thankfully they are treated as normal shares for CGT purposes, there is no eight year disposal nonsense.

Its available on T212 and IBKR that I know of, used to be on Degiro previously also, I left them because they pulled it (and other Investment Trusts for reasons unclear).

Wossack

a lot of etf's available on revolut, and noticed for one (IUSA), Ireland is ranking second under number of users with exposure to the fund (US 96.88%, ireland 1.64%, uk 0.70% etc)

No sign of any investment trusts on it unfortunately

techman1

Regarding degiro I noticed that they have put some investment trusts like city of London investment trust in a separate category titled " ETFS and Trackers". I rang them to query this that city of London is not an etf or a tracker, its a trust that invests in a set of companies it doesn't track anything? Didn't get anywhere with them, my concern is that revenue doing a trawl of brokerage accounts will flag this up as an etf that was not declared and then investors will have to go through a laborious individual process to prove that they are not at all because degiro have wrongly categorised them?

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122089525#Comment_122089525

I could be mistaken but I doubt revenue would base their classification of an investment vehicle on a categorisation degiro uses?

I mean its an investment trust not an ETF, theres a reason they have a different name?

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122089525#Comment_122089525

"Revenue doing a trawl of brokerage accounts"

What information do stockbrokers report to Revenue?

techman1

"Revenue doing a trawl of brokerage accounts"

What information do stockbrokers report to Revenue?

I don't know, you had me worried there for a second, I thought you had news that they were actually doing that now, but you were just quoting from my post. I think revenue are under resourced as it is for normal taxation stuff, most of revenue staff don't understand exit tax themselves, can't see them doing this sort of laborious work. I think their strategy is to scare the bejaysus out of investors away from these funds and etfs altogether

beaufoy

A little of my history ten years ago I bought properties in Ireland

5 years ago I moved to ireland

3 years ago i left ireland but i still own 4 properties in ireland and pay income taxes and cgt tax and taxes on my stock market investments

This year I sold an apt and after paying a huge cgt bill i have 100,000 euro burning a hole in my pocket

I do not want to buy anymore property and i feel there will be a recession soon and the stock market correction will cause shares to decrease by about 30%….hence i am avoiding shares, but keeping the 30,000 i already have in shares….I bought cruise ship shares during covid so CGT would hit hard

Now my idea is as follows

Invest in Bond ETFs then wait for the crash and take money from the etfs and invest it in shares….can anyone give me advice??

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122594543#Comment_122594543

Do we know for sure what reporting happens from stochbrokers like DeGiro to Revenue?

antimatterx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122595068#Comment_122595068

Assume everything and you'll have no issues

dumb_parade

Nothing in the budget on changing the tax rules on etfs?

Ubbquittious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122673259#Comment_122673259

Don't think so

Shedite27

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122673259#Comment_122673259

"Rules" aren't a budget issue, just the rates. Any changes to the rules will be in the Finance Act if changes are being made - usually comes out in November.

And I still don't think there will be pre election

Atlantic Dawn

Some talk of reduction in tax rate and perhaps dropping of 8 year deemed disposal...

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2024/1022/1476846-investment-funds-chambers/

HGVRHKYY

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122751802#Comment_122751802

Will take years to implement for some reason. Typical of Ireland.

antimatterx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122751802#Comment_122751802

I'm stunned that's the recommendation. Great news.

Supercell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122751959#Comment_122751959

I cannot believe my eyes, there is hope that the government is coming to their senses at last.

antimatterx

If any FF TD is here, you have my vote now for the best election. Don't make me have to switch again in 5 years if you fail to remove deemed disposable.

VonLuck

So would it make sense to invest in ETFs now and hope that it comes in before the 8 year DD hits?

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122752679#Comment_122752679

I think you have to go with what the current rules are

Still no certainty this will come to pass....

I'm in the ill believe it when I've seen it camp

I've witnessed so many imaginary carrots being dangled before that didn't materialise....

ZeroThreat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122756360#Comment_122756360

There was an Irish Times article today, basically it said change may come, but certainly not anytime soon. Will be a future government anyway and may take years to implement.

https://www.irishtimes.com/your-money/2024/10/29/investors-face-long-wait-for-overdue-etf-tax-reforms/

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122777494#Comment_122777494

Yeah...it could be a while...

Don't get me wrong I would still consider ETFs vs Investment Trusts

For one thing they can be much more diversified, not actively managed etc

ITs can trade at a discount to NAV for years, their dividends/distributions will be taxed at your marginal rate

The DD and no ability to offset losses still might not be enough put me off some accumulating ETFs...but it does make them much less attractive when they shouldn't be imo

In reality I'd probably opt for a mix of ETF IT, and stocks/shares ...after a lot of research.....outside of a pension.

But it is a bit shite the taxation drives people to more concentrated risky investments when I'd assume a majority of them would be better off in ETFs if investing outside of a pension.