Time for a zero refugee policy? - *Read OP for mod warnings and threadbans - updated 11/5/24*

NattyO

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120487223#Comment_120487223

Good lord, I've seen some fair oul guff on here, but this is right up there.

"No reason to believe that the breakdown of asylum seekers coming to Ireland would be that much different" - why not? those figures are for people arriving by boat in to the UK, what makes it an automatic assumption that different people arriving by plane in a different country would be the same? And how does one flee from "Afghanistan, Syria, Yemen, Somalia etc" and arrive on the coast of England in a small boat? Seems to me like its far more likely they were fleeing war-torn France.....

"in terms of bogus claims we're probably look at around 3k-4k (and much lower than that in the last decade)" - a completely and utterly made-up number, pulled straight out of your arse, based on a spurious percentage of a number that has nothing to do with arrivals in Ireland!

"There's not a shred of evidence that people who are not genuine refugees and not from a dangerous country are being granted asylum here" - a barefaced lie, we have thousands of "asylum seekers" in Ireland from Georgia and Albania, not to mention South Africa, Zimbabwe, etc. In 2021 the acceptance rate for "asylum seekers" from Georgia was 17.5%, Albania 24.7%, South Africa 34%, and Zimbabwe 54.7%. I have been to all four of these countries, and it is a joke to claim they are dangerous countries - you could book a holiday to any of the four right now and not worry about your safety any more than you would on a trip to Dublin, London, or Paris.

Backstreet Moyes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120487223#Comment_120487223

I find it astonishing you are using the words not a shred of evidence in a post with figures made up without a shred of evidence to back up anything you say.

You claim to have no skin in the game, yet you are here daily making up things like above, posting lies on occasions and disingenuous in a lot of posts.

Why anyone would without any skin in the game do this is a head scratcher for me.

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120487223#Comment_120487223

You've not provided one shred of evidence to substantiate any of that nonsense. Not one.

Again, I'm asking you to link to hard data confirming that the majority of asylum claims in Ireland are legitimate. Provide the evidence. A throwaway reference to a nebulous FOI request in the UK (to which you haven't linked) is tantamount to precisely nothing.

Frankly, there is "no reason to believe" anything you emit, when you are either unwilling or incapable of supporting any of your utterances with actual data.

rgossip30

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120485364#Comment_120485364

You got figures for the exact numbers that remain here apart from Ukrainian refugees a deduction of 10 k is madewhich was his arguement ? There are those who apply living abroad to obtain wills or those born to Irish parents .These numbers would not be substantial.You could explain why its nonsense .

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120487347#Comment_120487347

Yeah but that's a very, very narrow way of defining what constitutes danger for a person fleeing. I mean, you only have to consider how statistically safe it has pretty much always been for people to travel to Northern Ireland — this does not negate the dangers faced by people who fled their burned out homes in Belfast or had to escape other threats to their lives / wellbeing.

Applying a threshold of 'oh well, if you went there on holiday you'd be fine' is a distinctly unrealistic and illogical standard for determining the justification of individuals fleeing violence or persecution there.

Furthermore, I've also been to South Africa and have family there. Saying that it's comparable to Dublin in terms of safety is, to put it lightly, a really strange view. Just because a relatively wealthy Westerner might be able to go there in relative safety does not negate the fact that there are people there facing very dangerous circumstances.

Even at that, the figure of 34% needs to be read against the fact that 382 people apparently fled South Africa in 2021. From what I can see there were something between 118 to 148 applications to Ireland and 34% of them were accepted. The stats also seem to suggest that the majority of them are from outside South Africa, and violent and even deadly attacks on migrants in South Africa (places like Diepsloot) have been a problem there.

NattyO

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120488115#Comment_120488115

Define it how you like, but if any of those four countries are so dangerous that one has to flee in terror, then it is likely that one would flee parts of Ireland in terror too.

Refugee status, under your definition, should be available to people living in many parts of Dublin. While it would be wonderful in theory if everybody lived in utopia, unfortunately that is not possible, and accepting refugees from countries where the "danger" is mugging or being called a nasty name makes a mockery of the asylum system, and takes up places that could go to people fleeing real mortal danger.

enricoh

Can anyone post the full link , I don't have a subscription. Seems fine Gael not all singing off the same hymn sheet. (Much to the indos disdain, chief cheerleaders as they are.)

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/leo-varadkars-weak-leadership-laid-bare-as-sinn-fein-shows-way-on-dissent-over-refugee-housing-42435065.html

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120487636#Comment_120487636

I could throw the same question right back at you. Where is your evidence that the Irish Department of Justice is granting asylum to people who are not genuine refugees and who are not fleeing war zones, famine hit areas, oppressive regimes etc?

The nationalities of those being granted asylum here sound remarkably like they must be real refugees:

Annasopra

.....

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120488245#Comment_120488245

Well it's not my definition is it? The definition is provided in the UN conventions as: "persons who are outside their country of origin for reasons of feared persecution, conflict, generalized violence, or other circumstances that have seriously disturbed public order and, as a result, require international protection."

There are two components there — the cause (i.e. violence, persecution etc) and the solution (i .e requires international protection). The difference as to why someone from Dublin wouldn't typically qualify is that there is simply less scope in our wealthy, egalitarian and healthy functioning democracy for a person to require aid that they cannot get in the State.

There are undoubtedly chancers who game and exploit the system, or people who may be on the very lightest end of the refugee definition — but going on as if international refugee laws or coventions are designed to capture things like potentially being mugged or called names is just needlessly reductive.

creeper1

Japan has recently shown great kindness towards Ukrainian refugees. They have admitted over two thousand. This is a high number for a country far away from another continent with no responsibility for what is happening.

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2023/02/22/national/tokyo-refugee-policy/

Wisely this does not signal a change in policy generally for asylum seekers.

Ireland has done way too much for asylum seekers already. It's staggering generosity that has been shown. Nigerians ( a country with a massive and growing population) and others presenting can not be entertained. Ireland cannot save the world and cannot be Santa Claus to the world.

Potatoeman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120489213#Comment_120489213

Only a few of those countries are at war. The asylum system is being used to bypass immigration checks. In the end it’s doing more harm than good. It’s madness that in the modern interconnected world you can just make up a story and turn up somewhere and expect to be housed and feed indefinitely.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120482414#Comment_120482414

Ah will you stop. They raised the pension age from 62 to 64 in France in response to people living longer. The state cannot afford the social welfare commitments from 62 to 83 (life expectancy) and the lazy French need to get over themselves. And it's not reflective of a general breakdown in society either. Bunch of drama queens on this thread. Mon Dieu.

getoutadodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120485364#Comment_120485364

Yeah that stark statistic (305,000 applied for pps numbers ) is not to the liking of the Ministry of Truth types. Hence the need to bury it asap.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120490286#Comment_120490286

But the point is that there are large numbers of asylum refusals as well. As many people are turned down for asylum as are granted it. Turning up at immigration and giving a made up sob story guarantees you nothing.

I wonder also if posters here are aware that around 12,000 people applied for work / residence visas last year, had their application declined and were refused entry to the country.

Potatoeman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120491404#Comment_120491404

With no enforced deportations, just a notice asking people leave it’s not an enforced system. Even McEntee’s amnesty undermines the whole system. If your here illegally you are not paying income tax, I’m sure many will take the amnesty and claim the dole and continue doing what ever black market ‘jobs’ they were doing.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120491499#Comment_120491499

For sure, but the assumption must be that considerable numbers are subsequently leaving the country and taking their chances elsewhere (as there is no obligation on them to inform the state what their future plans are.....they are now outside the system, with no legal entitlement to work or claim benefits).

As for the amnesty, it was intended to bring long term undocumented people into the system. You had to be living in the state for at least four years before you could apply for settled status. Not sure though why this would be a particular focus for people in Ireland - there are undocumented and black economy workers in every single country in Europe (the UK for example appears to have a much bigger black economy per capita than we do).

Potatoeman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120491774#Comment_120491774

State benefits should be capped and for a limited time, they certainly shouldn’t be given to those that travel here to live off the welfare state. We have more than enough of our own that do that without importing more that bring even bigger problems with them. Ireland would be in a far better position if it enforced existing rules. For an example of this look at the number of non nationals on the housing list.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120492346#Comment_120492346

But even EU citizens cannot travel to Ireland to claim benefits. You have to be legally working and paying taxes in Ireland for two years before you can sign on. The idea that people would move to another country just to sign on doesn't exactly sound that plausible either. Would you move to the UK or Germany just in order to sign on the dole there? If you wanted to better yourself as a person and build up some savings, you would definitely be looking for full time employment.

thinkabouit

https://youtube.com/shorts/pwDfUJYuQyQ?feature=share

And are these the kind of problems we want to be importing into this land.

Yes we have our own causing the same trouble but still no excuse to be bringing more S h I T on our doorstep

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120494898#Comment_120494898

Oh yeah the likes of the Healy Raes , Mattie McGrath and Michael Lowry are surely the people we need driving change in Ireland.

🤣🤣🤣

Potatoeman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120494871#Comment_120494871

I’m spoiling my vote in protest. The independents in my area are all socialists.

Kyokushin Grappler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120490463#Comment_120490463

It's the way he did it that's causing the issues. He circumvented the constitution. That's a dangerous precedent.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120494975#Comment_120494975

It seems there may be more than one plan along these lines afoot?

https://galwaybayfm.ie/galway-bay-fm-news-desk/local-td-michael-fitzmaurice-calls-on-independents-to-create-new-rural-political-party/

https://gript.ie/we-want-to-put-ireland-first-rural-independents-on-a-possible-new-political-party/

I'd say the McGrath-Collins initiative might be more up your alley. AFAIK Fitzmaurice is not on the record as making any pointed comments about immigration; I'd see him as more of a left-populist...

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120495057#Comment_120495057

Hopefully they come soon and take away the socialists

US3

...

Cyclonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120492543#Comment_120492543

I'm afraid that's not correct. Regarding freedom of travel, an EU citizen has the right to travel to another EU country as a job seeker, and reside there for 90 days, if memory serves, after which they must have the means to support themselves (job, savings, etc.), or return to their EU state of origin. As a job seeker, a non-resident EU citizen is not supposed to have access to the social welfare system of the EU state they moved to, seeking employment.

For a person to claim a benefit, such as Jobseeker's Benefit (JB), they must have a minimum number of contributions, two years worth in the case of JB. (Social welfare contributions can be "transferred" from EU states, or other states with which we have bilateral agreements, though there is generally a minimum number of credited contributions from this state needed before you could qualify for a benefit payment; see here for more details, if interested).

An allowance, however, is not based on contributions, but is instead a means-tested payment. Examples include Jobseeker's Allowance (JA), Disability Allowance (DA), etc. If someone comes over as a job seeker, they would not be eligible for JA, for instance. If, however, they find employment, and happen to be lose that job, they would bypass the issue about not being eligible for a social welfare payment in Ireland. For instance, if someone worked as little as a single day in a mushroom house, that'd be all they need. The next hurdle they'd have to cross, however, would be the Habitual Residence Condition (HRC); more details can be seen here and here. The HRC considers five factors:

• Length and continuity of residence in Ireland
• Length and purpose of any absence from Ireland
• Nature and pattern of employment
• Your main centre of interest
• Your future intentions to live in Ireland as it appears from the evidence

The HRC can be quite nebulous, but, if a person can show they have ties to Ireland (such as family living here), have cut certain ties to their state of origin (such as closing bank accounts there, for instance), and that they intend to remain in Ireland/that it is now their main centre of interest, they can satisfy the HRC condition, and be eligible for JA, even if they've only worked here for a very short time.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120496361#Comment_120496361

I'm pretty sure I saw figures that around 10%-11% of those on the Live Register are EU citizens, so very much in line with the overall breakdown of the population. Moving to Ireland just to claim €220 a week on the dole would seem a total waste of time, especially when there are so many well paid actual job vacancies at the moment (record employment levels and lowest unemployment in 20 years).

Sand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120495335#Comment_120495335

I don't agree that putting a rural/urban divide on things is the right course to take. TBH, I'd take an extremely negative view that it is a distraction to avoid dealing with the actual issue for Irish people as a nation

The problem is not an internal Irish dispute between "Dubs" and "Culchies". Or X county and Y county. Only Irish people give those identities any value. This is something new - or something old. Like 12th century old, where the indigenous people are still squabbling about the petty local allegiances to chiefs whilst something new is arriving in massive numbers from across the sea.

We've seen this sort of establishment political response in the US, and even the UK, where the dominant political ideology attempts to disarm and defuse the indigenous people's reaction to mass migration into red/blue state nonsense or con/lab crap. The indigenous people recognise a scenario where they are being marginalised is a bad outcome, and the political class that are doing it to them (i.e. all of them - red, blue, con, lab) attempt to misdirect their discontent into some tactical disagreements about tax rates, fox hunting, gun rights, "flegs" or values (whatever those are) as opposed to existensial questions about why London -the English capital - has a minority English population inside just 50 years.

Ultimately the hoped for end result is a "Northern Ireland" scenario where the locals are bitterly divided over minor street issues about who marches where, while the real state level policies are decided by "compromise". The repeated excuse is that the local, sovereign governments hands are tied by international or supranational commitments. This is a total lie. Look at the Stephen Lawrence killing - the UK government literally sent a Royal Navy nuclear submarine to spy on the the holiday discussions of a bunch of young men they suspected had killed SL. When the UK government wants to, they can move heaven and earth to try (and fail) to convict innocent men. When it comes to groups of men journeying across the English Channel in small boats? Nope, nothing that can be done. The Royal Navy nuclear subs stay in port. International laws, etc. The limits to their power apply when they want.

So forgive me if I am negative about some "new" political movement trying to misdirect Irish people into a rural/urban divergence instead of dealing with the real problem of a new Fingal. And if this new movement is attempting to cast it as Dubs/Culchies they are either honestly wrong, or they are maliciously attempting to install the same dumb US/UK politics. We end up with two parties who are viciously, personally opposed to each other on irrelevant topics but who both agree mass migration is good, private monopolies are good and we must wage the forever war on (China/Russia/Iran - delete as appropriate). Its almost laughable - all the dumb 90's "reformers" who talked about leaving FF/FG "civil war" politics behind end up in exactly the same dynamic where they agree on 100% of the day to day management of the state (endless mass migration) and only disagree about inconsequential nonsense: whose grandad was in the GPO/whose grandad was a racist.

enricoh

Maybe we should just disband the tourism industry altogether and focus instead on the refugee industry!

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/hospitality-firms-seeking-aid-as-housing-refugees-hits-tourist-trade-42440493.html