Time for a zero refugee policy? - *Read OP for mod warnings and threadbans - updated 11/5/24*

sonar44

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120664062#Comment_120664062

I'm not convinced it's binary at all.

As a mind experiment, think of the ankle bracelets that are fitted to limit some criminals movements in some jurisdictions. Does it follow that as they are not in prison, that they are not criminals?

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120664075#Comment_120664075

So, you don't believe we should assist refugees fleeing war?

Harsh, but you're entitled to your opinion, the country have signed up to the Geneva convention in the 50s though

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120664115#Comment_120664115

You do realise there is only genuine refugees?

A refugee cannot be fake.

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120664154#Comment_120664154

Absolutely they can. As the many chancers turning up at our door from safe countries, with missing IDs, or claiming to be part of an actual refugee group proves.

What a large number of these people actually are is economic migrants posing as refugees - and squandering/stealing limited resources that should be going to the genuine cases instead.

But you know this of course. I'm not fooled.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120664058#Comment_120664058

I was reading too that there are reams of legal documentation that are required to deport someone, that the person must have a valid passport or ID, that police officers must accompany them on the flight all the way to the destination country and so on. It's not just a case of frogmarching someone to a gate at Dublin Airport with a piece of paper and saying 'Off you go'. It's expensive and time consuming and hassle and probably explains why a lot of these deportation orders are not being physically carried out.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120664163#Comment_120664163

No, there is no such thing as a fake refugee.

A refugee is someone who has been granted international protection.

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120664183#Comment_120664183

You can try semantics with me all you wish, but you're wasting your time. I'm not buying.

The facts are that there are many (too many) arriving here with a sad story claiming to be fleeing safe countries or travelling through EU states to get here that are in reality economic migrants chancing their arm. Those are facts as the stats (which have been posted in this thread and others like it in the past many times) will show.

In any case... we have long past the point of sustainability here - unless you think people sleeping in tents on the streets isn't a problem? We also have no historical or moral obligation here beyond basic humanity which is fine, but again must be in the context of reality and practicality. Our supposed legal obligations are easily negated by the opt-outs that our virtue-signalling Government refuse to activate.

Again, I feel sympathy for the plight of genuine refugees - but we aren't responsible for the problems in their homes, we can't fix all the ills in the world, and we already do more than our part to help, and I certainly don't agree with putting our own needs and many problems behind theirs (see that social contract part I referenced earlier).

All the wordplay in the world won't change that.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120664226#Comment_120664226

Those people arriving here with their 'sob stories ' are not refugees.

They are seeking international protection, they are IPA or asylum seekers.

When posters don't even know the difference how can anyone take their posts seriously?

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120664213#Comment_120664213

The EU has nothing to do with our obligation with regard to refugees.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120664180#Comment_120664180

And for every one person deported there must be 2/3 Gardai accompanying them. So flights, accomodation, overtime and subsistence allowance must be paid. It's a lot cheaper to assist people to leave, help them get flights sorted and 'see ya '

Mac_Lad71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120664183#Comment_120664183

Under false pretenses.

To me they're all fake and should be deported.

We owe them nothing.

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120664236#Comment_120664236

Your point is both wrong and ultimately irrelevant. We can't sustain anymore regardless of what they present as (which is in many cases an attempt to hide their true nature as economic migrants).

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120664274#Comment_120664274

Ukrainian refugees would be here with or without any EU directive.

And presuming they will live in welfare says more about you, tbh. Do you have any idea how many Ukrainian people are working in this country? Or are you just basing your predictions on prejudices?

sonar44

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120663480#Comment_120663480

I just checked, the links are still there.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120663018/#Comment_120663018

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120664295#Comment_120664295

My point?

My point is fact, refugees have been afforded international protection, there is no such thing as a fake refugee. And hardly irrelevant, when your whole argument was about fake refugees!

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120663982#Comment_120663982

Yes I read that post . That's why I asked you to clarify it , because your take was obviously incorrect .

That quote you took from the Immigration Act 2004 does not , as you say, say that people in this country applying for asylum are illegal .

It in fact says that people who apply for asylum are to be excluded from the provisions for detention or penalties , and as per Irish law , they are not treated as illegal immigrants .

You have been given multiple opportunities to correct this but you doubled down and kept inferring other posters just didn't understand .

You don't like being questioned , I get it , but trying to say that others are " misunderstanding the law " because you don't like being corrected , isn't really a very mature argument .

sonar44

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120664476#Comment_120664476

I didn't say that the 2004 law made asylum seekers illegal, I made the point that it excluded asylum seekers from the provisions of the act while they had claims in hand. This allows Ireland to implement the principle of non-refoulement contained in Article 33 of the 1951 convention. Ergo, there is no need to offer legal residency as we understand it, as with visas or reciprocal arrangements. And, as a matter of fact, no one has yet posted a link that explicitly states we do offer legal residency to asylum seekers.

Goldengirl

Because we don't offer legal residency .

You are spouting rubbish here in the hope that people who don't know will be bamboozled and let you ramble on.

What was said by every other poster here this evening , including me, arguing this with you, is that they are not illegal immigrants as you claimed, but they have a different status which allows them remain while they are being processed .

They are not illegally here unless they are found to be as a result of a failed application.

Nobody mentioned refoulement in connection with this .

Ireland is not the only country who have fought to implement the principle of non refoulement

" The principle of non-refoulement is a part of customary international law and is therefore binding on all States, whether or not they are parties to the Geneva Refugee Convention "

This has nothing to do with refoulement or non refoulement . Non refoulement just means that they will not be sent back to the country or persecution they are fleeing from . It does not have anything to do with their status here .

That is from Article 33...you originally ( in the post you referred me back to with much condescension ) quoted Article 31 !

Luxembourgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120664180#Comment_120664180

I think it could be argued not deporting anyone and being seen as a soft touch is also very expensive.

We are reaping what we have sown for years with lax or non existent policy by politicians who just didn't want to deal with it. Unfortunately as its come to a head we have an idealogue as both minister and junior minister, both of whom are very unimpressive

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120664305#Comment_120664305

Your entire argument is based on semantics and wordplay to try and deflect from the reality of the situation - that's the point.

Anyone turning up here from a safe country, particularly a European country, with a sad story is an economic migrant pure and simple. They are here and being processed under false pretences. That doesn't just happen in a vacuum either - the resources and effort to support them in the interim is not free, and can drag on for years. Given the numbers that have arrived, it's a huge amount involved that we are paying for what are basically chancers.

The majority of potentially genuine refugees at this point are Ukrainians, but you could argue that nearly 18 months later, and with large parts of their country still operating mostly as normal - including hotels - are they genuinely under threat of imminent death by the time they've trekked across the breadth of Europe or moving between member states who are changing the entitlements and rules, or are they seeking a better life in a State that has foolishly promised it anyone who makes it here?

But regardless of how they present at the point of entry, regardless of supposed legal entitlements, the reality is that we've opened our country and its generosity up to huge levels of abuse from anyone who has the neck to make the trip - as seen in that video a few pages back with the 2 ladies gushing about the goodies on offer here.

We're also full. We can't support any more new arrivals who can't support themselves, and even then we can't provide housing for even legitimate economic migrants from the EU/elsewhere which employers have already been highlighting.

That doesn't change no matter what legislation, 60/70 year old convention, or agreement you want to quote. This is also why (as someone who is supposed to be well versed in the area would know), laws and legislation are argued every day in courts for interpretation, exceptions and intent. I'm sure no law or international agreement intended that host nations be overrun to the point of people sleeping on the streets, or essential and basic services at the point of collapse, no matter how well intended the authors may have been.

So again, there is theory (or more accurately here, ideology) and the hard unforgiving wall that is reality and no matter how you try to put it, or ignore it, you can't escape from the fact that we have passed the breaking point and a new approach is needed - in fact being demanded (also legitimately) by the citizens of this State as per recent polls.

Our Government is responsible to us, and works for us (regardless of what some politicians may think). They are required to put our needs and wishes first. That's called democracy. The people have said that we've taken on too much and a change is needed. That's indisputable at this point. The Government's job now is to look at and implement those alternatives in accordance with our wishes.

You may not like that, or continue to ignore the reality of the situation and views of the majority, but that's the problem with an over dependency on social media - it's rarely reflective of the reality and frequently just an echo chamber for the ideologically driven or just naively well intentioned.

The country is full. Our resources are at breaking point, and the people who are most exposed to the fallout of this have had enough.

It's time for a change.

DiscoReaper

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120166717#Comment_120166717

Under Article 9 UN51, we have an opt out under ‘national security’, given the amount of assaults, murders, and ‘other’ crimes being committed by ‘refugees’ that have moved on from Continental Europe/Sweden/UK, I think we are more than justified in invoking this opt out!

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120664757#Comment_120664757

It's also funny how we have all these obligations that we can't escape, when other countries are able to change their rules, supports, and adherence to these supposedly inviolable agreements.

Bit unusual that only a small island nation off the west coast of Europe is the only one who must go down with the ship on this one.

sonar44

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120664651#Comment_120664651

I'm not taking the time to respond in detail to posts that are offensive, disrespectful or playing to a gallery. If you would like to quote my post and offer a reasoned response, I of course, will respond in kind.

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120664691#Comment_120664691

Our current crop of politicians are probably among the most dangerous we've ever seen in this country.

Ideologically driven, listening more to social media than the electorate, and massively inexperienced or underqualified for some of the senior roles they hold (Helen McEntee being probably the most obvious, or Leo Varadkar who seems to think of being Taoiseach as an opportunity to rub shoulders with celebs and important people, or quote movie lines on the telly, while making gaffe after gaffe).

Say what you will about Charlie and Bertie, but at least we got some positives from their tenure (mostly dragging this country out of the 50s economically and socially) but what have the current/more recent lot achieved except making already serious problems exponentially worse, fostering division by pushing American identity politics and culture war agendas, and diluting our already largely ineffective democratic process still further with coalitions and confidence and supply deals among themselves?

By the time the current group of senior politicians retire (because we've allowed TDs to become a job for life), the damage to this country will be irrecoverable.

Ten of Swords

Mod - Can we drop the Illegal immigrant vs Asylum Seeker argument please, there's pages of it at this stage.

This is an extract from the mod note from post #1 so can we please stick to this? Thanks

This thread is about refugees not people who migrate to Ireland for other reasons

Luxembourgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120664796#Comment_120664796

To be fair to McEntee at least has worked in the real world, even at a very junior level.

O'Gorman is straight out of academia to a very a important role. Joe O Brien has only worked for NGOs. They live in a bubble and it's so so dangerous.

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120664805#Comment_120664805

Do we need a separate thread then?

Genuine question.. These issues are all related, especially as someone can present as whatever they wish under the current situation.

It's near on impossible to discuss properly without those related elements coming in.

Perhaps we need a general "migration and refugees" thread with more flexible guidelines?

Might make it easier for all?

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120664820#Comment_120664820

Maybe if posters just took the time to understand what different terms and what the different status of persons actually is, they may find it easier.

A refugee has been afforded international protection. They have either been given it as a result of an incident in their home country, war in Ukraine for example, or they have gone through a process where their claims have been investigated & they have been afforded refugee status.

It is impossible, not alone ridiculous to suggest that someone is a fake refugee.

An asylum seeker is not a refugee. This is basic stuff lads.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120664757#Comment_120664757

What amounts would that be now? Exactly?

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120664844#Comment_120664844

Fair enough. You keep arguing semantics then.

Given the mod comment above, I'll leave you to that - but the reality as I outlined for you is very different.