Time for a zero refugee policy? - *Read OP for mod warnings and threadbans - updated 11/5/24*

Bobtheman

I think a distinction needs to be constantly made

The modern refugee system is indeed a ton of horse manure. An African skips 30 nations and ends up in Ireland? Beggars belief

I know the Danes had basically introduced a zero refugee policy up to the Ukrainian war

I see no reason why we can't outside of Ukrainians.

Just turn down everyone.

But there is no party openly promoting this outside the far right though I hear the government is quietly making it more difficult.

I can see a few far right TDs getting elected

Legal and illegal immigrantion is a separate matter. We have now a high proportion of non Irish in Ireland. Many regard themselves as Irish particularly those born here but we need to avoid alienation that's rife in places like France

Either immigrant children become alienated or Irish people use them as scape goats.

One of the Highest immigrant ratio. We do need immigrants but I doubt any long term planning is occurring. I doubt we have evaluated integration.

Immigrants don't do welfare and work hard in the main. But we still need to evaluate. Look at the mess in the UK. It was a prime mover behind brexit and ironically many immigrants voted to leave because they wanted to pull the ladder up once they were safely settled after 40 years.

In terms of illegal immigrants I have seen enough evidence to suggest the state is pretty useless at tracking people and this potentially could be an issue

Ironically in the states by the time of Trump in 2016 illegal immigrantion had fallen considerably and is still falling

It was a failure of various US presidents to police it that lead to it being an issue

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121124750#Comment_121124750

As Trump would shout FAKE NEWS.

Trump brought down legal immigration.

Illegal border crossing apprehensions (What about building a wall) actually spiked in 2018 doubling on the previous years. A level not seen since 2007.

That was well during the trump presidency.

FAKE NEWS

rgossip30

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121124808#Comment_121124808

Admittances rose between 2018 and 2019 due to a surge of Venezuelan asylum seekers, highlighting the economic and political crisis in the country which continues today.

Stephen_Maturin

https://www.thejournal.ie/hospital-overcrowding-ireland-3-6168748-Sep2023/

Nobody read this article, as @Strazdas has assured us all numerous times there are no issues at all with access to essential services like healthcare in this country.

Artificially increasing our population by 100,000+ in the space of a year and a half and giving medical cards to all these people also adds no additional strain to our services either…apparently

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121125403#Comment_121125403

It is an issue and an unfortunate reality. My point is that any Irish government has to plan for a rapidly growing population : saying "We'll just stop the population from growing" is no sort of a solution to pressure on services and infrastructure (the Govt may as well start putting on TV adverts encouraging everyone to emigrate at that rate).

Gen.Zhukov

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121124278#Comment_121124278

Yeah, there was a lad on last week trying the guilt-tripping angle too - don't think it worked then either

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121125434#Comment_121125434

 (the Govt may as well start putting on TV adverts encouraging everyone to emigrate at that rate).

Straw clutching at it's finest

Goldengirl

@Bobtheman The problem with 'just turning people down' is that you have to stop people coming off planes and detain them, then by the time they have been interviewed and assessed for deportation if you are seriously talking about this, they have legal reoresentation and are appllying to the HighCourt. Then you are down the same road and long months of pricessing claims, but much more adversarial and needing security and accomodation.. detention centre style

Of course it can be done but it doesn't work out easier in the longterm.

High immigration and lack of integration in communities might have been the trigger for Brexit in the UK , but are they any further along with their flights to Rwanda and their floating refugee centres after all the bluster, and now years post Brexit?

And the misery and bad feeling, not to mention reputational damage to their human rights profile internationally?

I think the radicalisation of Islam and the bombings and mass attacks in London and Manchester had as much to do with Brexit as anything else. Can you can't blame the English for that really?

It changed the ordinary people and created the Little England against all the rest mindset. As in the 1980s after the IRA bombings.

But they allowed their immigrant communities to settle nto ghettos in large cities, allowed discrimination and racism to fester, inequality of education and opportunity and lack of integration with whole communities allowed never to learn the language or mix with other cultures. Through fear as well as lack of supports.

This led to increasing distrust and marginalisation, ripe for AlQaeda and jihadi indoctrination.

Thats what we have to avoid even if we manage to reduce numbers,

Stephen_Maturin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121125434#Comment_121125434

Or they could just leave it to grow at its natural rate (we already have a decent birthrate particularly in relation to the rest of Europe) and buoyed somewhat by controlled immigration.

Limitless influx that you advocate for makes it impossible to ever expand our capacity sufficiently to keep pace with pop. growth

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121124750#Comment_121124750

I can see a few far right TDs getting elected

Although remarkably yours is not the most delusional piece of right-wing commentary I've come across today

https://gript.ie/poll-can-you-feel-the-aontumentum/

Goldengirl

@Bobtheman part 2!

We need to ensure that people who are accepted are treated well and integrated properly so we don't have some of the worst effects of ghettoisation and radicalisation of disaffected marginalised immigrant communities like UK and other countries. If people are given the same opportunities and with the proviso that all new citizens have to learn the language and about the history and culture, weill be on the right track.

I don't accept that this is an impossible situation for Ireland.

Unlike other countries our history of migration, our lack of a defined class structure, our good access to education makes us a great country for new people and families to make a good life here... and I'm not talking about free houses and social welfare benefits here as no doubt somebody will come back at me with.

Racism, lack of housing and lack of integration are the three problems that must be addressed if our society is going to function well in the future, regardless of who comes here to live.

You are right about the planning. None of this works without proper planning by government.

And this is why people are worried.

Its like the gpvernment have been caught by surprise and plans are being made up as they go along.

Like they didn't know we had a problem with housing before/ over the last 8 years?

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121125486#Comment_121125486

Infrastructure and services keeping pace with population growth us definitely a huge problem. David McWilliams had a good article about this in the Irish Times only on Saturday - he says the country needs immigration, but also needs houses and infrastructure and any sort of imbalance is going to create political problems and disquiet in the country.

Bobtheman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121125602#Comment_121125602

I have no faith in Government planning at all. Can you name one area where the state is functioning properly because it planned?

We have a teacher shortage. The government is doing practically nothing. It's hoping demographics will sórt it out.

Bobtheman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121125541#Comment_121125541

Right wing commentary? Delusional? Putting a meme in response ain't an argument to intelligent people.

Stephen_Maturin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121125636#Comment_121125636

So about we retain the immigration (it is of course necessary in any modern) but reduce the overall numbers permitted entry to avoid any additional undue strain being placed on our services while they attempt to catch up with our population growth?

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121125647#Comment_121125647

You could apply that to nearly every area.. Like ministers are just reactive instead of proactive.

Marcos

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121121369#Comment_121121369

"Where will it end? I fear we only need to look to places like France, the UK and Germany to see that. They're further down the line with this "experiment" but there's no reason to think Ireland will be any different - especially given the "quality" of our Government and TDs in general.

In any case one thing is certain, it's going to get worse before it gets better. No other outcome is possible so long as the politicians stay this course."

It's crazy, realising you wrote this at about the same time as the stabbing in Dublin Airport yesterday morning.

Bobtheman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121126122#Comment_121126122

Let's take a breath here

We certainly have lessons to be learned but there are a number of differences

We need immigrants demographically.

We need to work on integration but so far that ain't an issue

We don't feel superior as a race unlike the British or French

We are under populated and demographically need people

I teach in a school with 40% of a non Irish population. These kids work. Even the ones born here

How many unemployed non nationals do you know?

The key issue is housing. Once sorted it will all be fine

However the present legal immigrants are like the Irish going to London. They sort their own accommodation out.

Bobtheman

All that being said I don't trust the government on planning.

Poor communities should not be the only place where refugees go.

I'm tired of 100k liberals lecturing the population.

Cal4567

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121126459#Comment_121126459

And well heeled liberals who seem to live in very nice areas where there is little evidence of integration, if they're not alternatively camped in their 2nd homes down the country, or at least all the ones I know are!!

I'd have little confidence in our government structure in planning for demographic changes, so the concern would be more people getting pissed off. We do seem to work to reactive issues rather with much pre planning, something SF, if it is to be them, could capitalise on.

Some left wing commentary argues that this issue won't be prominent in the coming election. I suspect more and more it will be.

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121126450#Comment_121126450

We need to work on integration but so far that ain't an issue

There's been numerous examples over the last few years (even covered by the main outlets) that suggest this isn't always the case by any stretch.

We are under populated and demographically need people

Says who? By what metric? Please don't suggest pre-Famine times where people lived in absolute poverty and squalor as any sort of barometer.

The key issue is housing. Once sorted it will all be fine

Um no.. I'm afraid it's nowhere near as simple as that, and such "be grand" thinking is exactly why we're now in the position we're in on this issue.

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121124256#Comment_121124256

Speaking of disingenuous.....

There has been any number of potential solutions (both immediate and longer term) proposed in this thread by myself and others over its lifespan. Maybe start there.

I will grant you that the lack of political will to even acknowledge the need to change tack is the first obstacle to overcome, but there are absolutely steps that can be taken to relieve the pressure while we then agree a longer term strategy - preferably with the input of the electorate who will again be asked to pay for and live with the consequences.

Just because you don't think it's possible to stop people coming doesn't make it so. While we'd need a solution for the NI border, if we stopped accepting them at the airport/docks that would be a great start.

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121126821#Comment_121126821

I didn't say I didn't think it was possible, i know it takes a bit of time but you could do me the courtesy of reading through my posts as I have done with yours and others.

I think we will probably end up in a similar position in the short term and in a more adversarial situation with detention centres, more security gardai and costly legal battles if wectry to stop people at airports and borders. This is currently playing out in the UK as I referred to.

But long term we may cut numbers of those who are chancers because we won't be seen as a soft touch.

Those who are genuine refugees will still come in smaller numbers maybe, but we may lose from a reputational pov in terms of human rights.

I know some here. don't rate this as something to be concerned about, but it is only once it is lost that people can see how it moves a country's voice down the ranks in disvussion and mediation, and bargaining credit Again ref UK.

Finally to pick you up on the 'solutions' proposed on the thread....

All I have seen is abuse and various tones of "send them back home" , "scroungers" illegals, criminals and rapists and murderers, and various other forms of negativity aimed at the few of us who have been trying to focus on the pro side of the debate for a long time now. Not always and not all posters but enough to drive anybody with an alternative viewpoint from the thread pretty much.. Maybe thats the aim?, sad if so.

If people are worried about Sweden and France etc and the difficulties they have encountered, on a purely visceral level, it starts with rhetoric like that left unchecked and unchallenged.

How can anyone rationally discuss solutions or attempt to, when there are literal rabble rousing statements being trotted out, and not countered by all sides of the debate.

Its insidious, and its this "unwelcome" that will marginalise and cause all the problens people fear.

That is not to say there are big problems with the way our government have been handling everything, but if everybody continues to focus on that, we are going nowhere here and its just an echo chamber of powerless whinging.

Bobtheman

Between 2011 and 2031 Irelands number of people aged over 60 is projected to double.

By 2041 - 160%

This is an issue across all developed nations.

Ireland is not a crowded country we have space for younger immigrants to aid this greying trend.

But not in the next five years or until we sort housing

However simply importing people to keep us in current life style etc is not a total solution. People will have to work longer as we all live longer

acequion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121118227#Comment_121118227

I find your point in the above post that this whole uncontrolled immigration is being pushed upon us by high up in the EU interesting, but I'd like to know what brings you to that conclusion? If that is the case why are other EU nations not taking in as many as we are and why are some actively resisting? Do you think that other countries have more ballsy, perhaps more patriotic politicians who put their own people first and are not afraid to tell the EU where to go? And are our politicians just a shower of sycophantic me feiners more interested in feathering their own nests? Personally I'd be inclined to believe so and have long lost faith in any Irish politician doing what is right for the people who elect them, especially nowadays as they know they'll most likely get voted back in as there is so little choice in the political landscape.

However, sycophantic as they might be, one example stands out where our politicians did it differently to Europe. And that is when they outlawed foreign travel and introduced mandatory quarantine during the pandemic. Following the UK rather than the EU and a move that was criticised in Europe and had many complaining to the EU about Ireland violating freedom of movement. So they don't always kowtow to the EU. Which is why I'm interested in your reasoning as to why this mass immigration is being orchestrated by Europe and followed obediently by our Government.

Stephen_Maturin

https://extra.ie/2023/09/18/news/irish-news/electric-picnic-camp-site

Who could possibly have seen this coming?!!

A disgrace.

Reckon all the No limits advocates are delighted.

It’s been clear we’re past capacity for a while so one can only guess their continued support for this policy is mostly seated in their need to be perceived as morally superior to others.

Rather than the reality of what people arriving here will actually have to experience when we’ve nowhere to put them.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121127993#Comment_121127993

There is no such thing as "No limits" advocates though. The Irish government would much prefer if no refugees came here at all, as it costs them a fortune and with no return (talk of NGOs supposedly actively wanting refugees to come to Ireland is just the usual far right conspiracy theorist nonsense). In an ideal world, we wouldn't have a single refugee heading in our direction.

Stephen_Maturin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121128093#Comment_121128093

Well that’s patently false, as we can opt out like Denmark have done but a certain cohort, over represented among the media won’t hear of it.

Would you prefer to see us exercise our opt out? Would you like a limit or would you prefer the current limitless option?

grumpyperson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121127433#Comment_121127433

Personally know a lovely couple, highly educated, working that will not marry or have kids because they cannot afford to move out of home. They won't have kids because they cannot find secure stable accommodation. I know another family (2 adults 2 kids) living with the childrens grandparents.

There's a situation where a large cohort are missing the opportunity to have kids because of the housing issue.

Importing more people again puts pressure on accommodation which again lowers the birth rate (currently 1.6 per woman) which means more people are needed. Look at Singapore

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/singapore-total-fertility-rate-population-births-ageing-parents-children-3301846

We seem to be trending in a similar direction. I could be completely wrong but that's how I see it.

grumpyperson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121123928#Comment_121123928

There's countrywide housing shortage. Have you been living under a rock?

grumpyperson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121123942#Comment_121123942

why the continuous anti refugee sentiment posted on this thread ?

Probably because the housing situation is not resolving. I'm not anti refugee or anti immigrant but I see a very very serious issue with housing in Ireland.

It's 100% obvious that more people put more strain on housing. I also think it annoys people when others attempt to gaslight them and tell them the opposite.

That's my guess.