Time for a zero refugee policy? - *Read OP for mod warnings and threadbans - updated 11/5/24*

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744376#Comment_121744376

Don't forget existing nursing homes being converted into accommodation centres - reducing market competition and increasing prices for the remaining homes.

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744347#Comment_121744347

Look mate, I'm not here to defend the spend. As far as I'm aware, the huge outlay was acknowledged and the State no longer will be covering these costs. I imagine it's one of those things that was in place but probably wasn't designed to really work in the context of a refugee crisis within Europe itself and huge numbers of asylum seekers arriving. And it seems to be something being experienced elsewhere — Norway for example has spent €5.5 million on Ukrainian pets seemingly: https://ground.news/article/norway-has-spent-63-million-kronor-on-ukrainian-pets

But anyway, my point was that this kind of spending is not "diverted" away from healthcare. Budgets are apportioned to a great many things in this country that aren't as vital as healthcare, that's just how a national economy works — it doesn't mean those other things are given some priority over healthcare.

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744431#Comment_121744431

Your point is wrong though, if its taken from the states coffers it is diverted at that point, end of. It could have been spent on something else, whatever that might be. Now it cant be, its gone forever.

I am sure this did not come our of the Dept of agricultures budget and it came out of the few billion we found down the back of the couch.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744168#Comment_121744168

But the government were being forced to talk about their immigration policy 2 weeks ago and they were panicking and coming up with all kinds of hair brained ideas (chartering deportation flights and building massive reception centres). Now they get a pass on all that and will focus their spoof on the idiotic brainless arsonists.

My point stands, the fires are letting the government off the hook.

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744465#Comment_121744465

I'm sorry but that just isn't true — there isn't some binary decision made where the State is like "hmmmmm do we give this 800k to the children or to the chihuahuas?". Money is allocated across a great many things in an economy. Millions of euros goes to the arts, culture, random events etc — lots of things that are absolutely nowhere near as important or urgent as getting children the right medical care. OPW spent near €500k buying paintings ffs — but nobody talks about stuff like that in these conversations because it's easier to get people wound up over foreigners and their pets.

The State spend on all things Ukraine is borne out of an emergency situation that nobody was really prepared for — and therefore spending can really spiral in these situations because there isn't really a template. As mentioned, the Norwegians have spent €5 million on Ukrainian pets, so it's not something that Ireland alone has not perfectly managed financially and as mentioned, it seems the spend on this is being cut.

But yeah I see you've gone and started another thread to stoke up yet another selectively targeted complaining session along the lines of "look at how much was spent on the vast array of non-vital things that a modern functioning society spends on that may come at the expense of healthcare foreigners!".

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744556#Comment_121744556

"Money is allocated across a great many things in an economy." - If you read the article you will see that they had more demand then anticipated and kept going with it for a long time - it was caarte blanche it seems - so money wasn't allocated in this case firstly. As I also pointed out to you in my last comment, I very much doubt this money came out of any departments budget - it has come out of the free for all refugee money hasn't it? Money that could be spent on anything else, even the OPW, now or at any point in the future. Bureaucracy is not an excuse for incompetence or poor decision making in my opinion.

I did start another thread yes, to discuss the mad government spending. If it was the pets of the citizens of Kerry I'd be starting it too.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744420#Comment_121744420 The thread title is the article title also - just so you know im not trying to steer the conversation in any way. The whole reason for starting another thread is to not dilute this one with talk of misallocation(in my opinion) of gov funds.

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744603#Comment_121744603

Yeah but you're saying it yourself — more money than anticipated. A program was there to be availed of, it was availed of and the spend was large in the context of an emergency situation. The spend was publicised and from simply Googling that program now I can see that the State is no longer covering this spend.

And yet — despite this, despite the fact that its a relatively novel issue, caused by a relatively novel scenario, and has been acknowledged and addressed — this is the issue you hone in on? Not all the other longstanding things that the State spends on that clearly aren't as important as scoliosis in children. The state funded body that organises the Saint Patrick's Day festival gets over €3 million in funding. Is that more important than children with scoliosis? Are you up in arms over children not getting surgery while money is spent on driving a float with fire breathing acrobats through the city centre?

No. It's the 800k spend on Ukrainian pets that needs to be pushed forward as the talking point — because the best people to pit against the children of Ireland are of course foreigners. That's what gets people's selective outrage aroused. It's not all the other **** that money gets spent on — the children did not get proper medical treatment because of the feckin Ukrainians.

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121745091#Comment_121745091

I appreciate what your saying, but this is a thread about refugee policy. This brain fart is related to that policy.

You are right, in this day and age, in an economic success story such as Ireland priorities such as scoliosis do need to be considered vs trivial cultural events, but I am trying to stay somewhat on topic, hence the other thread.

The simple fact of the matter is that money, in my opinion, was moronically allocated(or whatever we want to call it) when it could have been spent on any amount of other things.

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121745156#Comment_121745156

The thing is — I have no particular issue with anyone questioning or criticising the spend on refugees. I mean, yeah, I do think people can be pretty unreasonable in terms of viewing issues like these in context (i.e. it's novel issue caused by an influx of refugees and therefore there was no real plan to handle it, or simply the existing plan wasn't designed to manage this well) — but I don't have an issue in principle with people questioning spend.

What I do take issue with however is when these issues are selectively chosen as the "Either / Or" versus something like children having access to vital treatment or something along those lines. In other words, the whole trope of "This money that went to Ukrainians could have been spent on treatment for scoliosis" — the inference being that if it weren't for spending on refugees, this precise money would have gone towards this precise treatment.

iColdFusion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121745091#Comment_121745091

The 3 million on St Patrick's day probably pays for itself in the revenue it generates every year though and lets be honest its the most Irish day of the year so most people will be absolutely fine with that.

€800k on pets for people who claim to be in dire straits fleeing a war is not okay, id love to have a pet but have neither the time nor spare money for one so you have to question what those Ukrainians were thinking bringing their pets with them?

They must have been pretty sure the Irish taxpayer was going to bend over backwards to give them and their pets a cushy life anyway, even getting a pet from Ukraine to here cant have been easy so you really have to wonder what their priorities are, it wasn't working as hard as they could to payback Irish generosity if they have a pet to look after.

And I appreciate some bleeding hearts will say "Oh they had to bring their dog with them for the kids" but again that does not sound like the actions of someone fleeing for their life.

conorhal

"We've tried the, 'there's nothing needs to be done approach', then we tried the 'do nothing approach' and after that we gave the 'there's nothing we can do' approach a go. Now (that there's an election in the offing), we're giving the, 'lets talk about maybe doing something eventually' approach a shot."

-The Government

There is plenty that can be done to limit some of the ridiculous draw factors successive governments have allowed to develop.

Firstly, the right of asylum seekers to work judgement by the Supreme Court was a ridiculously flawed decision, compounded by the government permitting AS to work after only 5 months in the country. This permission badly needs to be legislated to a minimum of 18 months, or instead of a useless referendum this summer, put closing this loophole to the people. This has been a huge draw for economic migrants posing as bogus AS.

Anybody arriving without documentation has committed a crime in doing so. They need to go straight to a purpose build detention facility. And you don't leave until you remember who you are and where you came from, so we can get your government to provide you consular assistance to issue you a passport to allow you to travel home.

Legislation should be put forward to limit the number of appeals against a refusal to one, with no further appeals to various EU bodies.

There should be no more amnesties, leave to remain, or appeals to the minister entertained. Just a firm no. It's amazing how well 'no' works when you use it consistently, instead we proffer a whole lot of, 'ah well sure maybe if you hang on long enough we'll just let you stay' going on.

Frontex needs a much more robust 'Con Air' style repatriation agency and if they won’t do it then we should do it ourselves and when we issue a deportation order, we feckin' deport people. Also, once a deportation order is issued, the deportee joins the clowns that lost their passport in said detention centre where they will remain until we wave goodbye to them at the boarding gate.

Do all that and watch the numbers fall like a rock.

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121745818#Comment_121745818

Do you know many dog owners? They're like family members to a lot of people and I think a lot of (if not most) dog owners would try if they could to bring their pets with them if it was feasible to do so. That's not "bleeding hearts" — if you can bring the dog you'd probably bring the dog, and if you had to ditch the dog then you'd have to ditch it.

Ukraine isn't exactly the third world like, its a case of refugees fleeing who would have significantly better means to travel and bring pets with them than people fleeing Africa or the Middle East — especially in the context where Europe is relatively easy to travel across and there is a good chance the animal will get looked after. That is probably part of the reason why the spend was a lot higher than was probably anticipated, and other countries appear to have spent a fair bit on it too.

And I come back to the point again — this God awful blame game whereby if it isn't the case that Ukrainians are the reason that Irish children didn't get vital surgery, then it has to at least be the case that a person who brings their pet needs to be viewed with suspicion. It's OK to question the spend of the 800k — but it's the tendency to play the man and not the ball on here that makes it hard to take certain frustrations on here as being sincere.

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744376#Comment_121744376

Hardly pulled out of the back pocket. Pulled out of the big budget surplus we had in the last few years.

Aa you said, a long term housing crisis. The housing crisis hasn't been caused by ukrainian refugees arriving and been told to live in tents in electric picnic. It exists because of decades of neglect by FG and solution to the hous8ng crisis isn't getting rid of Ukrainian(or other asylum seekers).

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744376#Comment_121744376

And why wasn't the money thrown at housing 5-6 years ago? Was that because of the refugees?

Bobtheman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121745708#Comment_121745708

Interesting point. The government has no problem throwing hundreds of million at a problem it judges to an emergency. It feels that given the temporary nature of expenditure it can do this but once this money is spent it is gone even if it won't pop up next year.

However it's beggars belief that it took them 100 years to give free books to all kids. I'd say we are the last nation in western Europe or indeed all of Europe to do that. 20 million a year that cost.

We are towards the bottom of developed nations in terms of education spending.

I just don't get their logic at all

Bobtheman

While I doubt we'd be any further along with the housing issue without a refugee problem the state has a beggar thy own methodology in countless areas that is startling

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744603#Comment_121744603

That's just mad stuff, €800K+ to bring in pets. Who thought this was a good idea should be required to pay it back, out of their own salaries.

It's a real kick in the goolies to many small Irish businesses who get zero help from the state, who generate wealth and see the sweat of their labour thrown away just thrown away like it means nothing.

Your other thread has been zapped I see.

jack of all

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121747171#Comment_121747171

Imagine being a parent of a child suffering from scoliosis and being told: "sorry no funding available for the surgical procedure this year....budgets, waiting list....etc". It's disgusting.

tom23

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121747442#Comment_121747442

We have more important issues at hand. Saving animals. Saving the world.

tom23

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121747171#Comment_121747171

All the same... 800k. Have we actually just lost the plot altogether... we are like some crass rich kid throwing notes all around the place in a show of wealth. Im sure there are plenty of schools, clubs and charities that would take that 800k or a slice of it.

rgossip30

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121747171#Comment_121747171

I wonder were the pets part of our obligations!!

_---------

Record numbers of asylum seekers notably 40% from Nigeria with only 13% from countries at war .!! The new measures will they make a difference not likely .

https://gript.ie/asylum-arrivals-surge-again-in-first-5-weeks-of-2024-to-record-numbers/

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121747171#Comment_121747171

I suppose we have to discuss it here then - but like I said it’s not that it went to Ukrainians or any refugees it’s just a gross misallocation of funds that you think would have been nipped in the bud far earlier - like who had the power to keep that going and what was the reason?

Stephen_Maturin

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/social-affairs/2024/02/10/majority-favour-more-closed-immigration-policy-to-reduce-number-of-people-coming-to-ireland/

Wonder how long it will take for this information to penetrate McEntee’s thick skull

Bobtheman

It would be helpful if the state published full figures on the amount of refugees etc and deportations

Nobody will convince me that a person who skips a couple of countries even a continent to to get here is a genuine refugee.

Don't expect Martin or varadker to do anything really radical. Both want EU jobs

Voting for ind is no solution either

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121748920#Comment_121748920

Probably a long time. I thought the most telling question was - In an election do you think you would be more likely or less likely to vote for a candidate that voiced concerns about immigration or would it make no difference to how you would vote?

30% more likely, 20% less lilikely, 40% no difference.

Taking a tough stance on immigration isn't really a huge vote winner. Especially for FG.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121749109#Comment_121749109

So what is the solution?

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121748920#Comment_121748920

Forever. If no other party takes a difference stance, why change?

You are missing the point.

If option A is the only option on the table, Option B is irrelevant.

InAtFullBack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744556#Comment_121744556

You can go right up the garden path with that one.

Any government that signs off on spending in this regard deserves to be tossed over the cliffs of moher head first.

We have a situation where close on a million €uro of taxpayers money is used to transport fcukin cats and dogs here while Irish kids cannot access proper healthcare is an absolute **** abomination.

Jesus H **** Christ, at least the Bishops weren't this lacking of morals. And that IS saying something.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121752366#Comment_121752366

The bishops? Christianity is hardly virtuous.

Many would say the opposite.

Back to reality & social welfare in ireland is very generous.

Are we doing enough to keep doctors and healthcare workers here?

No. But thats because we dont prioritise anyone that doesnt qualify for social welfare.

Big mistake.

batman_oh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121752147#Comment_121752147

Sure why wouldn't you want that kind of diversity here. He's clearly one of the many random 'refugees' that are propping up our health service