Time for a zero refugee policy? - *Read OP for mod warnings and threadbans - updated 11/5/24*

Francie Barrett

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122214867#Comment_122214867

Who cares?

When the facts change, you should be able to change your mind.

ooter

Reminds me of something ivan Yates said on his podcast recently, can't remember exactly but he was basically saying as a politician he had a particular set of values but if people didn't like them he had a completely different set of values.

Was it pat rabbitte who said "that's what you tend to do during an election?"

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122214271#Comment_122214271

What? This doesn't make any sense whatsoever, you're clearly trying to wind people up.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122214285#Comment_122214285

No. Asylum seekers are housed in DP centres or left to sleep on the streets. They are not affecting the housing crisis

shaymouse

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122215016#Comment_122215016

but they don't stay as asylum seekers, they usually are given permission to stay, and end up on the housing list.

it's supply and demand, how many houses do we need to build just to accommodate former ASers?

Lotus Flower

I don’t agree that 2020 is a short space of time in this context. We’ve seen how certain events can change the world overnight. Therefore McNamara is free to change his mind. And I’m not sure that his views in 2020 are some kind of gotcha either. Does it not prove that he’s not a racist bigot but just thinks we need to sort out the shitshow that’s happening right now?

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122215022#Comment_122215022

And if they are given permission to stay, they are no longer asylum seekers!

Everyone in the country puts a strain on housing, former asylum seekers are a relatively minimal number of immigrants into the country. There are groups that out a whole lot more pressure on. Singling out one small group for the housing crisis is ridiculous.

ooter

Are there not something like 5 or 6 thousand people still living in DP that have been granted permission to stay in ireland but have nowhere to go so are still in DP accommodation?

Pretty sure I heard that figure recently, if all those people had to leave that accomodations tomorrow surely they'd have to go on the housing list?

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122215032#Comment_122215032

I'm quite amazed you're ok with this from 2020/2021 when you claim O'Gorman's tweets in 2019 bought tens of thousands of people here.

An Irish TD putting out videos of himself in the Dail defending IPAs rights to better accommodation and their human rights requirements to start families and avoid deportation!

I doubt with his history with Refugee NGO's he would have been unaware of the vetting processes back then when he wanted people to join swimming groups with the 'unvetted males', or Irelands history with higher IPA arrivals, or the numbers who had arrived Europe but who had largely stopped coming to Ireland at that point.

Here's the video again from his Youtube channel in case anyone couldn't see it on Facebook.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7IeMJs9q6E&list=PLzPlXJb0DMbxICL5WFM7A-y-RtIUB50oP&index=35

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122214463#Comment_122214463

Certainly isn't. There's plenty of proof on this thread.

Geert von Instetten

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122214847#Comment_122214847

Remains consistent with the idea that his present policies are in response to a systemic abuse of the asylum system. Obviously recognises it isn’t in his interest it engage in purity test with Leahy. I reckon he’s right too. In addition to adopting policies of deterrence, another thing that could be learned from other Member States such as Denmark is that there is a way to discuss and debate migration.

sekiro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122215061#Comment_122215061

It seems like the argument is over how those people would be classified.

So, while it's true that those 6,000 people would need homes, they would no longer be classified as "Asylum Seekers" and so Asylum Seekers are not putting a strain on housing.

That's the tactic. We quibble over definitions to distract from the fact that we don't have enough homes for the people already here all while the government plans to bring in even more people but not to build accommodation for them.

Not a great plan.

Imagine filling up a litre jug of water by 100ml every hour then after 10 hours you stop because the jug will overflow. "Why do you want to stop now!? You've added 100ml to the jug every hour for the last 9 hours with no complaints, why is it an issue now!?"

So you are forced to keep pouring at a faster and faster rate and the jug is overflowing and there's water getting everywhere. Should you stop? Of course not! Just start adding milk to the jug instead! Won't that just make an even bigger mess? Don't be silly! You were hardly complaining about the water 9 hours ago so why are you suddenly bothered about milk now!? It's not milk that's been spilling all over the floor!

Some time later your daughter comes in and slips on the spilled milk and water all over the floor you think she might be injured but why don't you shut up because the neighbours aunt slipped on some ice last winter and you didn't care then so why do you care about people slipping now? Also she slipped in milky-water so I don't see how thats related to the reckless pouring of milk and the reckless pouring of water anyway.

alias no.9

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122215091#Comment_122215091

Proof of what? You said

Because people with anti asylum seeker sentiment have demended the Government target Ukrainians.

Evidence? Where is the evidence of anything on this thread being a factor in government decision makiing?

In keeping with the Big Fact Hunt tone of the thread, there are no Ukrainian Asylum Seekers in Ireland so even if people had anti asylum seeker sentiment, what's that got to do with Ukrainians?

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122214206#Comment_122214206

When you resort to making things up it isn't a good look. Ireland haven't taken in more Ukrainians per capita than any other EU nation.

https://www.euronews.com/2023/09/20/war-in-ukraine-which-european-countries-host-the-most-refugees

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122215136#Comment_122215136

I'm happy to change the term to anti-refugee sentiment. Or maybe anti-persons fleeing war sentiment? I'm comfortable using both terms.

I can't provide evidence of this thread influencing the government tbf. I accept that. So instead, we can agree that posters on this thread who've demended that Ukrainians be targeted with cuts and disincentives to stay in Ireland are no doubt delighted that the Government have done exactly that.

Happy?

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122215132#Comment_122215132

If it is the case that the asylum system is open to systematic abuse McNamara would have been well aware of it long before 2020 and 2021, so why only start discussing it now?

Here's a list of some of the roles he previously filled as part the EU's section on employment, social affair and citizenship.

https://pace.coe.int/en/members/6764/mcnamara

Here's a report he wrote on human rights and the EU detailing arguments on asylum and border control.

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/meetdocs/2014_2019/documents/libe/dv/5_report_/5_report_en.pdf

Here's an EU measure he votes against in 2014 calling on support for Italy to clamp down on traffickers in the Mediterranean.

https://pace.coe.int/pdf/71e5d01deed13799b1e714e39d056a573adfe671dcc4af33a3fcd7b60a728eac/doc.%2013531.pdf

He's been very engaged in this area for a long time now. If there were systematic abuses, or the potential for them, I think it's fair to say he would have known. So why change his tune now, just as an EU election arrives?

Geert von Instetten

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122215209#Comment_122215209

Why, at a time when Government efficiency in the area is declining and abuse of the system has increased exponentially, would a person become interested in addressing the issue? I wonder indeed. McDowell is consistent on the issue, I commend him for that, but I won’t condemn McNamara or others for altering their opinion in light of recent developments in the area. McNamara is an intelligent, eloquent speaker which is valuable, whether he has altered his views because the reality of the policy space has changed, or because it is politically convenient, or out of some mixture of the two. And I suspect it’s his capability, rather than some drive to expose hypocrisy, that has you so exercised.

ooter

Regardless of whether those people living in DP accommodation are still classified as asylum seekers or not is irrelevant, if they were all asked to leave tomorrow to free up space for people still in the system the homelessness figures would rise to close to 20k overnight and would be a terrible look for govt.

alias no.9

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122215202#Comment_122215202

So anecdotal then, thanks.

Anti-persons fleeing war? Could we not agree on anti-persons gaming a system set up for people fleeing war in order to gain residency rights where they don't meet work visa criteria?

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122215298#Comment_122215298

No, we can't agree on that. Ukrainians are fleeing war. There's no debating that fact.

alias no.9

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122215316#Comment_122215316

That's not even up for debate, I do not include them, I include Albanians, Georgians, Algerians, South Africans, Pakistanis, Nigerians, countries where it is possible for citizens to live a safe and peaceful life, yet we are inundated with IPAs from these countries and it is causing an unnecessary drain on resources trying to help persons fleeing an actual war, see the displacement of Ukrainians to accommodate unprocessed IPAs.

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122215337#Comment_122215337

But we are talking about Ukrainians. The anti-war fleeing brigade on this thread have consistently demended the Government target Ukrainians and cut payments to them. So when that happens, I find it very strange the same brigade then turn around and complain how the government have done that.

Blind As A Bat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122215202#Comment_122215202

I notice the article you linked to is from October 2023 and only tells one part of the story. The OECD figures for 2023 show that Ireland had one of the highest rates per capita in the EU, and more than Germany, France or the UK. Only six countries in the EU took more per capita than we did.

In November 2023 EU published figures showed that between September 2022 and September 2023, Ireland had an increase in the number of Ukrainian refugees arriving, of around 72%, whereas across the EU the average figure was a 7.5% increase.

Jean-Christophe Dumont, head of the OECD International Migration Division, said the high numbers of Ukrainians fleeing to Ireland was “surprising”, due to Ireland’s location and the tiny Ukrainian diaspora in Ireland before the war.

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122214881#Comment_122214881

There is no misunderstanding @_Kaiser_

You posted a link in which the information directly contradicted your post to another and made reference to 'idiots ' .

I usually scroll past your long speeches which only serve to reinforce your opinion as the common narrative on the thread and do not add anything that can be discussed because it is usually just that , your opinion , which you are entitled to .You are also good at writing as I have said before .

Now this post was different .

You included a link which did not go with your reply to Bobtheman at all . Thanked as usual by those who haven't it seems read the link either . And the final statement about idiots was insulting both to him and others who disagree with the narrative being purveyed here .

I asked you why you didn't refer to the conflicting evidence within . You post back a patronising response and have continued in that vein ( misunderstood ? ) .

If you post you must be prepared to discuss , but you have not shown yourself willing here to reply in good faith .

Hence accusing me of all sorts which is clearly untrue is just to end the discussion .

If you had the honesty to admit that what was said in the link does alter what you replied to the op that would be fine . We could have reasonably discussed the housing situation and the government's plans .

But here we see that not only will you not , and doubled dwn , but you now seek to close the debate by insulting me , and trying to demean my posts saying I insulted another , it shows your immaturity .

Maybe you were as you say enjoying the weekend and didn't want to discuss at that time . Thats fair enough ...I was too .

But to be answer with rude and patronising posts that do not address the question asked is not on .

I will leave you to your speechifying so because thats what you are good for .

Now you enjoy your weekend .

Blind As A Bat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122214433#Comment_122214433

Long speeches are an Irish tradition. We are a nation of orators, we're loquacious, long-winded, verbose, it's an Irish trait and long may it survive.

I don't know why you assume xenophobia just because some of us don't want Ireland to be flooded with hordes of dodgy men from Albania, Georgia, Nigeria etc. who can then spend years in the asylum system, lodging appeal after appeal. In what way is it a good thing for Ireland?

Blind As A Bat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122213968#Comment_122213968

Gwan ya good thing ;)

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122214962#Comment_122214962

This discussion started with another poster asking for clarification about said politician being a " career politician " .

So yes @MegamanBoo has successfully shown that Michael McNamara is , a career politician and as such will do what it takes to get elected .

As long as people are aware of that no problem .

But you quote Pat Rabbitte whose smart answer completely decimated public trust in his party and lost them multiple seats

There are many voting next Friday who would not be happy if the person they voted for flipped in another direction purely because" thats what politicians do "!

He has not stated yet afaik which group in Europe he will ally with... said he wants to get to know them first ..fair enough.But those voting really should know because the groups in the European Parliament are crucial to the effectiveness of the MEP you are voting for .

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122215608#Comment_122215608

When you stop talking about being " flooded with hordes " I might take you seriously.

iamwhoiam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122215608#Comment_122215608

I agree . Very insulting to be presumed to be Xenophobic because we see a serious problem arising

Most people are tolerant and accepting of genuine refugees and genuine asylum seekers and are happy to help and support them

Most people also know that allowing those in who are not fleeing war but are financial migrants in is making life more difficult for those in real need . Most people know that when resources are limited that you must prioritise those resources for those who need it most .
Our resources , shelter and support is of course limited we dont have a magic money tree or can magic up enough housing so we have to be selective where our resources go

If that is called Xenophobia then people naturally call it out and reply .

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122215591#Comment_122215591

The article is perfectly clear. The claim the poster made that Ireland has taken more Ukrainain refugees per capita than any other EU country is wrong.

Blind As A Bat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122215744#Comment_122215744

Fair enough. The article is clear but doesn't mention the comparatively high number of Ukrainian refugees in Ireland compared to most EU countries.

What's your opinion regarding the OECD's immigration head and his bewilderment as to why so many Ukrainians headed for Ireland? Why do you think they did?