Time for a zero refugee policy? - *Read OP for mod warnings and threadbans - updated 11/5/24*

SEPT 23 1989

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120286573#Comment_120286573

The Yugoslavian collapse was a much nastier affair on European soil than what’s happening (so far) in the Ukraine now

mass graves just across the water from Italy

peacekeeping and observing

a few you tube videos need to be watched by younger folk about that time

compare it to now

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120285192#Comment_120285192

People are often deported or leave voluntarily after being asked to leave. The anti-refugee people keep focusing on the numbers being accepted and ignoring that the system is quite robust and that people do get served with deportation notices.

My main problem with the Irish asylum system is that it moves way too slowly. It should be speeded up considerably, where people have their claim for asylum accepted and are able to move out of the direct provision system and into normal accommodation or are asked to leave the country, perhaps within a few short months.

clytemnestra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120287341#Comment_120287341

Yes, and much closer to home. I knew people in the '90s who were fleeing that war and there were daily horrific updates as it was going on. Thousands of people displaced from their homes, incarcerated in camps, mass rapes, torture, murders, I heard some of these things firsthand but it was on the news every day for years. There were refugees, absolutely, seeking a place of safety. But no suggestion that they should permanently empty their populations into the rest of Europe. This is an entirely new concept.

Luxembourgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120287547#Comment_120287547

Notices to leave mean very little if people don't leave

trashcan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120287547#Comment_120287547

A deportation order requires the person to remove themselves from the State in the first place. If they go, then they are not going voluntarily, they are complying with the DO. If they don’t go, then they are subject to removal by the authorities. Of course, human nature being what it is, many chose not to go and take their chances. Before a deportation order is issued the person must be served with an intention to deport. This gives them three options. Leave the State before a DO is made (this is the voluntary option. It’s advantage for the person is that if they leave at this stage then no DO is made, and they can potentially seek to re-enter the State legally in the future. Having a DO means you must stay out of the State, unless it’s revoked) The second option is that the person can make representations to the Minister as to why no DO should be made. These must be considered before a DO is signed. These considerations can be judicially reviewed, and if they are found to be legally flawed the Court can quash the DO and remit it back to the Minister to be considered again. The third option is to consent to the making of the DO, though I’m not quite sure why anyone would chose that option.

high_tower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120285558#Comment_120285558

I think they’re right to tell him to beat it. Keep the pressure up for longer and don’t be fooled - these politicians have shown their true colours so shouldn’t be given an easy ride.

theyd likely find suitable housing for them Ukrainians and then slip in the men from the other counties and it would be too late.

ArmaniJeanss

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120282228#Comment_120282228

You can't just unilaterally do that though, unless the other safe country (be it France, Spain wherever) agree to allow a flight to take off/land with an incomplete manifest and passengers to disembark without documentation. And if they adopted the same 'no passport, back to the safe country you just came from' policy then the person in question just ends up in a continuous flying loop.

So clearly it's something that needs co-operation, international agreement etc. It becomes, not rocket science admittedly, but still very difficult.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120292609#Comment_120292609

Bollix. If someone leaves country A with a passport and arrives in country B without it, send them back to country A. There will be a record of them in country A, not country B’s problem.

Mullaghteelin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120287701#Comment_120287701

Earthquakes with final death tolls up to 100 times the figures given in the first news bulletins, along with days on end of survivors pulled alive from rubble, have unfortunately been a regular occurrence since TV news has existed.

We also never had suggestions to house earthquake victims before, as there has been from some quarters recently. Earthquake victims are free to rebuild their lives almost immediately, unlike in an ongoing conflict with no end in sight.

Wasn't there something we learned in school about how it was better to teach a man to fish than to give him fish? There are better forms of charity than just giving.

ArmaniJeanss

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120292695#Comment_120292695

I understand it's your wish that the system worked this way.

The actual reality is that the staff of the airline won't just let people on without a passport/paperwork, the plane won't have landing rights without a complete manifest, and it would be a breach of all the current flying agreements between Ireland and other countries. Boring rules whereby we agree to have a thorough passport system in place to ensure that 100% of people who get on a plane are known.

It's a non-runner - it's akin to the hard-line Express readers wish of 'send them back on the next ferry' re the people who land on the English coast.

rgossip30

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120292772#Comment_120292772

Strange how some countries do it .

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120292695#Comment_120292695

Why should country A have to deal with the fallout of someone travelling to country B without the right documentation? Once they have arrived in country B and claimed asylum, it automatically becomes country B's problem.

No onus whatsoever on country A to play ball and have to permanently accommodate (or re-accommodate) people who have already made the decision to leave their jurisdiction for good.

Also, there is no law against an asylum seeker who has yet to claim asylum 'leaving' a country, so again, it is no longer country A's problem.

rgossip30

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120293572#Comment_120293572

Asylum seekers do get returned it's part of the Dublin 3 convention if they have sought asylum in another country but a few only.

Cluedo Monopoly

Whether we like it or not, there will be more and more migrants trying to get into this country illegally. They are forced to do it, they have no choice. We would do the same in their shoes. We need to accept that and then figure out the best ways to handle it in a dignified way. This article highlights the reasons.

Africa acutely affected after a year of war in Ukraine (rte.ie)

Africa caught in a 'perfect storm' of challenges a year on in Ukraine war.

Irishman Stephen Jackson, the UN's resident coordinator in Kenya, described the war as just the latest in a series of global factors that have caused a "perfect storm".

There was the Covid-19 pandemic, the climate crisis, and the Ukraine conflict - what he refers to as the three Cs.

"Already in 2021, the climate crisis was beginning with a drought emergency across the Horn of Africa, Ethiopia, Somalia, Djibouti, Eritrea," he said.

"Roll the tape forward to 2023, we’ve had five failed rainy seasons in a row and we’re about to go into our sixth. We’ve never had that in 40 years."

Kenya currently imports 67% of its wheat from Russia, and 22% from Ukraine. Mr Jackson added that the loss of this import, combined with the drought, has resulted in the current crisis.

In addition to food insecurity for millions, the fuel shortage combined with increased costs of public transport has meant that many have not been able to travel to work.

high_tower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120293669#Comment_120293669

We don’t owe them anything. Any “refugee” who travels across multiple safe counties to land on an island at the edge of Europe which juts happens to have the best benefits doesn’t fit the criteria in my eyes.

those counties have always been and always will be disasters , why are they all arriving to Ireland now ??

lmao10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120293811#Comment_120293811

Can you use common sense for a second and imagine if the nearest country had to take every refugee from that country. Just imagine what would happen.

high_tower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120293835#Comment_120293835

They don’t have to take every refugee as they’re almost all trying to get to the countries further north. When you allow everyone on your created greater demand to get in.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120293811#Comment_120293811

Firstly they are not All arriving here now.

Even if you change the criteria or benefits, they will still come. You might see more undocumented illegals that decline to seek asylum for fear of deportation but they will still come in larger numbers. This is the world we live in now. It's flee or misery/death for many. Accept that.

The EU and UK need to come together and put a plan together for this mass migration. Africa sure as hell won't fix the problems affecting them.

The thread title is a nonsense really.

lmao10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120293891#Comment_120293891

But your argument is that the refugees are travelling past "safe countries". What do you think would happen if the nearest safe country had to take in every single refugee? It's not realistic when you actually sit down and think about what you're saying, is it?

TomTomTim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120293905#Comment_120293905

What we're dealing with is almost the extreme opposite though, people going out of their way, passing many safe countries, to get to relatively remote island. It's piss taking of the highest order, and is very hard to justify in terms of actual need.

TomTomTim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120293901#Comment_120293901

 It's flee or misery/death for many. Accept that.

No, because it's objectively false for most of the cases. Most of your post is for that matter. Why in the world would restricting benefits not slow down the numbers arriving? To believe that you have to believe that welfare tourism isn't a thing, which of course is nonsense, considering how many other nations that they could have went to instead of Ireland. They aren't coming here because they love the Irish and our culture.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120293976#Comment_120293976

Yes reducing benefits would slow down the numbers in current terms but there will be more and more people coming over the next 2-3 decades. Primarily due to climate change. Nothing will stop them. By 2050 it will be an exodus. We're lucky to not be at the front lines. The likes of Turkey, Italy, Greece, Malta and Spain will need a lot more help.

We are at the finger in the dyke stage right now.

lmao10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120293930#Comment_120293930

Where are the stats on that? Compare it to a host of other countries and their numbers.

high_tower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120294196#Comment_120294196

The fact they have arrived in Ireland having flown in from safe European counties is proof enough.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120294230#Comment_120294230

He wasn't asking for proof. Metrics.

high_tower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120294245#Comment_120294245

Well there were about 12,000 alone last year (non ukranian). Probably more.

creeper1

In this comment I am addressing what cluedo monopoly said.

If their rains fail and their crops fail I certainly would be in favour of furnishing them with resources if that was overseen by a competent authority.

However them coming to one of the most high cost countries in the world limits what can be done. The same amount of money would stretch further in their home countries.

To put into perspective the size of the problems let's take Nigeria as an example. (Ireland has a large community of Nigerians now). Their population is 218 million!

That is forty times Ireland s population!

Can Ireland meaningfully make any difference to Nigeria s problems? Not a chance.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120294410#Comment_120294410

Yep and it's not a case of If...it's already happening.

The article I posted was from Kenya which would be one of the more progressive countries in Africa. Population 54m. Kenya is #7 on the Climate Risk Index.

Ethiopia has 114m. Sudan 44m. Congo 90m.

Climate change is happening quicker than envisaged and we have no hope of stopping it. The exodus will happen.

lmao10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120294365#Comment_120294365

Do you have any idea what numbers other countries have taken in?

Jack Daw

What is the solution to the migrant crisis just open the borders and let every single person in the world live in Europe, thereby ruining europe so it becomes as bad as the places people left.

That seems to be the policy the people who are 100% behind putting no restrictions on immigration (which seems to be most political parties in europe) wish to implement.

Fact is African counties need to get their **** together although most of them are probably incapable of doing so but if that is the case then they need to be told so by the UN (if it actually has any purpose) .Send aid if need be, send expertise there to help people , introduce contraceptive programmes but ruining Europe by having it massively overpopulated is not a solution to any problem.Europe is already overpopulated I would argue. It doesn't need to be even more over populated.

This issue has been bubbling up for a long long time with the lack of willingness to tackle population growth and policy makers around the world have done nothing.