Time for a zero refugee policy? - *Read OP for mod warnings and threadbans - updated 11/5/24*

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122455685#Comment_122455685

Did I attack “foreigners”? I think I merely stated you alone shouldn’t dictate national policy on the matter - similarly McEntee and O’Gorman should not be.

Check the thread title… there is no doubt illegal immigration is a minor factor on the multiple multi-decade crisis’ we are dealing with … but the thread is about “refugees”.

twinytwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122455689#Comment_122455689

And yet, almost everything you have proposed so far on this thread is just as bad.

Thus it seems no conversation can be had as the left are just as bad as the right in how they want immigration to function.

mistersifter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122455689#Comment_122455689

Nope. The conversation is there for all to see. You wrote it. Several times.

For example, see your post #27052. When I asked you to confirm your belief i.e. our government should allow private airlines to board undocumented passengers who utter the words "asylum/Ireland", you responded with the following:

"In essence and with some practical considerations and conditions attached that's the route we need to take Europe wide".

So you want this policy to become the norm across Europe and, I can only assume, the globe. IMO anyone with the slightest ability to think critically can surely foresee that this would lead to the total breakdown of the airline industry and, well, societies. What do you think about this?

Don't forget you can always retract what you said. I mean, people can realise they've said something nonsensical and then take it back. Would you like to take it back? If not, I'd be genuinely interested in hearing more about your plan.

How would you like the government to bring masses more asylum seekers here? Would you maybe prefer State-funded planes to fly around the world picking people up? If so, what destinations should we go to since anyone in the world is entitled to claim asylum? Or will we stick with private airlines taking charge of this via regular passenger routes? And if we stick with private airlines, how would we fund the plan - does the passenger buy their own a ticket or just pop down to the airport and jump on a flight at our expense? If the latter is your plan, do the airlines cover the ticket or does the taxpayer fork it out?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122403646#Comment_122403646

rgossip30

The underestimate of the foreign born population by the CSO , one wonders was this manuplitation . I remember RTE in 2022 gleefully telling the nation it was only 12% . 

https://gript.ie/evidence-since-2001-suggests-a-consistent-under-estimate-of-migration-numbers-and-population/?ct=t(EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_5_17_2022_13_19_COPY_01)

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122456195#Comment_122456195

Your efforts to see something that isn't there are getting tiresome.

I used the term 'practical considerations' to allow for any security requirements; be they passports, Id cards, biometrics, security pre-clearance checks etc.

I want to discuss moving border controls for asylum seekers to our borders to remove demand for traffickers, torture and ransom by militias, and deaths at sea.

It's abundantly clear you lot can't discuss what is actually a quite reasonable proposal without doing all you can to scream about 'open borders' and state funded planes???

mistersifter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122456340#Comment_122456340

Can you answer any of the questions I asked in my last post? Stop avoiding and trying to go back to being vague will you? Yes, you mentioned "practical considerations" and my questions are an attempt to clarify what this means.

So can you respond to any of the practical questions I put to you?

PokeHerKing

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122455925#Comment_122455925

And youre in favour of importing more of this cohort??

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122456442#Comment_122456442

I'll try one more time in the simplest possible terms.

I propose we, states within the EU, apply our border control measures for asylum seekers, at our borders.

This excludes any other requirement, any other body, might have for who can and can't board a plane or ferry.

The purpose being to avoid people having to use traffickers, cross seas in small boats, and facing militias in North Africa.

Using these as deterrents has failed and has significant and horrific consequences. To avoid misuse this approach can be coupled with further limitations and/or conditions on access to labor markets.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122456035#Comment_122456035

I think we should all be able to agree at this point that a significant number of people have come from the global south in recent years, in all likelihood they will continue to come at least in the short to medium term, and that most will go on to live here.

Regardless of how outraged people are about this, or who they think is responsible, it's in our national interests that these people settle well and are welcome it our communities.

Most will be productive in the labor market though some will need help with language and training.

Anyone genuinely interested in our national interests should be looking to do their best to help these people live well and productively. More services and housing will need to be available for all.

Violent protests, property destruction and hateful language are actually harmful to our national interests, we need to focus practically on what will be required for all.

twinytwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122456641#Comment_122456641

In that case why do we even bother having either an asylum process or visa process. If these people are going to come here anyway who are we to stop them?

How exactly is a seemingly ever increasing number of people coming here in our national interest? Just because people want to come here does not mean they should be allowed.

No deflection, no wishy-washy answer. Under your strategy of just simple acceptance how many people should Ireland accommodate every year for the short to medium term? You are now insisting it is in our national interest - putting a figure on it should be easy. The global south has like 6 billion people, many who i assume who love an opportunity to move north. What is the point where even the most hard core left has to say enough is enough? I'm willing to bet you wont as this is where you nonsense falls apart.

You should join PBP, Paul Murphy would welcome you with open arms.

To reiterate, weak men create hard times.

mistersifter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122456605#Comment_122456605

Your writing is not very clear at all. This suggests you haven't really thought out what you are saying.

Can you clarify what you mean by "this excludes any other requirement any other body might have for who can and can't board a plane or ferry…"?

Do you mean that usual travel document requirements should not apply to asylum seekers i.e. airlines should allow them to board planes without ID once they say they're travelling for the purpose of asylum? At present there's not really any other way to interpret what you're calling for.

So that leaves all of my previous questions still unanswered. So how exactly do you propose to achieve this? Can you describe your plan?

Patrick2010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122456340#Comment_122456340

So how would asylum seekers get to our borders ?

twinytwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122456605#Comment_122456605

Your continued insistence that we use these as deterrents, is, like most of what you post, laughable. Lets see any Irish or EU policy that shows this is the case?

Almost as laughable as your suggestion that we start endorsing large scale airlifting of people to Europe.

Captain cabbage

Look up UN.ORG Replacement Migration. 117 pages will blow you away. Nationality does mot matter to EU. it's simply about number for work and subsequent taxation. You are just a PRSI number.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122456835#Comment_122456835

I'd assume many of those currently coming via dangerous migrant routes would come safely via planes and ferries instead.

It would likely be more difficult for those genuinely without passports, but overall I think the harm reduction would be significant.

DaithiMa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122456641#Comment_122456641

Where will they all live in the short to medium term? The aul hoteliers will be rubbing their hands with glee.

Patrick2010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122456933#Comment_122456933

more difficult but not impossible to fly without a passport?, just say you're an asylum seeker

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122456808#Comment_122456808

I clearly stated that it excludes any other requirements for any other agency to change their processes.

It's you that keeps pushing this idea that airlines would have to allow people on without documents.

I've no idea why you think that they would do this other than you want to portray this as some 'open borders' policy to be outraged about.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122456805#Comment_122456805

I said nothing about whether or not it's in our national interests for more people to come here.

What is in our national interests, is that those people who are here, and will in all likelihood continue to live here, are treated fairly, with respect and given every opportunity to be productive.

The last thing we need is to do is to be creating division whether by exclusionary practices or hateful rhetoric.

In all likelihood more people will come and will stay here. We need to be prepared for this, and do our best to make it work as well as possible.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122456840#Comment_122456840

We actively choose to apply some of our border controls here and some in foreign ports and airports, so that people seeking asylum will be forced to use these dangerous migrant routes.

For example, see the recent changes made on requiring visas to board planes from South Africa.

If that doesn't make sense to you I'd suggest you go back to that book, from a respected journalist which won multiple non fiction awards, describing the process which I shared yesterday.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122456955#Comment_122456955

Just more difficult to get here was all I meant.

But again more trying to make this somehow about letting undocumented people on planes???

mistersifter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122456968#Comment_122456968

I absolutely do not think airlines would allow it. Nor would airport authorities, security or policing bodies, or anyone else involved in air travel. That's precisely my point.

But to clear this up - now you're saying that airlines should not allow undocumented people to board? Because a few posts ago you said it was up to the airline who they let board. And in your previous quotes (which I have quoted recently) you clearly said we should waive usual travel document requirements.

So you're still being very vague. But that is easily resolved. Can you describe the plan? How would it work? Give some examples of how you want the government to bring asylum seekers here from overseas. What are the logistics of all this?

whatever.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122457013#Comment_122457013

II'll make this very simple for you

How many do you propose we take ?

And what do we do when we reach that number ?

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122457147#Comment_122457147

Why are you still trying to push this thing about undocumented people on airlines?

Let me make clear once more...

I'm not proposing anybody changes how they operate, other than people seeking asylum are processed for border control purposes at our physical borders.

Airlines would have to change nothing about their security measures.

Can't do simpler than that, please don't try to shoehorn in this thing about undocumented people on planes again.

bloopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122457156#Comment_122457156

You are likely not to get an answer to this.

Any time I have asked in real life or online, the response is usually to storm off or to deflect the topic.

Coolcormack1979

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122457277#Comment_122457277

Mickey O’Leary on newstalk recently said they photograph all documents but when they went to government about it silence.tells u everything about this invasion of illegals into our country.follow the €€€

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122457156#Comment_122457156

I suspect you think that some kind of gotcha.

It's quite straightforward really.

We should keep 'taking' people until the cost outweighs the consequence.

I don't think we'll ever actually reach that point, or anywhere near it, because cooler heads will see we have to start seriously tackling the push factors.

Patrick2010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122457395#Comment_122457395

That makes absolutely no sense but nothing new there. Just heard on the news we have over 2000 new arrivals without state accommodation and more arriving daily

Patrick2010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122457107#Comment_122457107

It’s almost impossible to get a straight answer from you but can you say yes or no to this?

Do you believe airlines should allow passengers on their planes without any ID or passport? It’s a simple question

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122457107#Comment_122457107

Geuze

The more I read about these issues, over the last twenty years, the more I think we should aim for:

zero AS passing beyond our ports of entry

If that means the following:

• pre-flight checks on airlines like Spain or USA, all travel documents scanned, captured, saved
• people from more countries requiring visas to come here
• full biometric checks on all arrivals and people leaving
• detention of all AS at the port of entry while claim processed
• immediate deportation (within 24hrs) of anybody arriving without travel documents, by using their already scanned and recorded travel documents
• aircraft(s) on standby daily to deport

Becoming more like Japan, South Korea, etc., so as to make it very unlikely that anybody would ever bother claiming asylum here.