Time for a zero refugee policy? - *Read OP for mod warnings and threadbans - updated 11/5/24*

Geert von Instetten

That would indicate Ireland’s immigration and screening processes are working exactly as intended then, which is good news, surely? I’d suggest on that basis, as an Irish citizen and taxpayer the value I’m getting for fcukall investment is spectacular!

It would indicate that the asylum system is being exploited to a considerable degree by those with spurious asylum claims - in Ireland, as in the rest of the EU, the asylum system is being exploited as an alternative to legal migration. Incredibly few deportation orders are effected in Ireland or in the rest of the EU and a protracted appeals process often enables those with spurious asylum claims to remain on a non-statutory basis. Policies of deterrence, including limiting employment, are at least a partial solution - policies of externalisation are the other part!

OscarMIlde

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122487574#Comment_122487574

So to clarify, you are bringing up anti-semitc conspiracy theories and pogroms because you believe I am pushing such ideas.

Please highlight the anti-semitic posts I have made in this thread. For good measure please highlight what I have posted that could in any way lead to propagation of eugenicist and racist ideals.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122487658#Comment_122487658

It’s not an indication that the system is being exploited to any degree. The whole purpose of the system is to determine whether or not an asylum seekers application has merit, and whether they be granted asylum or denied. The fact that the vast majority of applicants for asylum are denied is evidence that the system is working exactly as intended, and extremely efficiently too given the overwhelming workload.

Limiting employment doesn’t act as any sort of a deterrent to anyone, they were coming here long before asylum seekers were ever granted the right to work, in increasing numbers since the mid-90s, so the idea that limiting employment acts as any sort of a deterrent isn’t supported by any evidence.

The ridiculous policies which have been floated about in this thread simply do nothing to prevent illegal immigration.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122487690#Comment_122487690

To clarify, I don’t think you’re pushing any ideas at all, at least not anything new anyway. I provided the example in order to demonstrate the point I was making about how what you consider to be a reasonable and fair argument made in good faith, is used by people who are not you, for purposes which I know you would never have intended.

I’ve already explained how what you have posted could be used in plenty of ways which would lead to the propagation of eugenecist and racist ideals. It’s why eugenics gained such popularity as it did in Europe and America that it became movement, and a very popular one at that which seemed entirely reasonable and fair.

Marcos

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122486943#Comment_122486943

Unfortunately, I’m not surprised at this kind of response to your post. A small but loud cohort on here have to try and smear rational points of view with links to eugenics and fascism, because they realise their shrill arguments fall flat, and that’s all they have left.

It’s like trying to argue human rights with ISIS supporters, the only views acceptable to to them are the ones they agree with. But it’s the majority that read these posts and their responses that are the ones who decide who’s pov is more correct.

amykl_1987

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122487862#Comment_122487862

The numbers of rejected application versus deportations doesnt tally though.

patnor1011

Problem with independent candidates is that they are independent in the name only. They tend to flock to where they gain the most. That is why they may even be called "for sale" candidates.

Geert von Instetten

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122487862#Comment_122487862

The purpose of the international protection system is provide protection to those that require it - processing applications is far from the purpose of the system - that the majority of asylum applicants over the decades of the system being in place are ineligible for international protection indicates exploitation. The extent of the exploitation was recently underscored by the fact that between 50% and 70% of asylum applicants are secondary movements from other EU Member States. In other words, the majority of asylum seekers in the State have travelled through multiple EU Member States, often registering asylum claims, only to then apply in Ireland - that is abuse and exploitation of a system that is unfit for purpose. Limiting employment is a deterrent, there are a multitude of policies of deterrence implemented effectively in EU Member States such as Denmark. Ireland has the highest per capita rate of asylum applicants in the EU, Denmark has one of the lowest. It is only recently, as asylum policy in Ireland has become even less effective, that the asylum figures have increased exponentially.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122487963#Comment_122487963

Is there some reason you think it should tally?

By which I’m guessing you mean the number of applications rejected in any given year should equal the number of deportations in the same year? As Geert points out in their post - applicants whose claims have been rejected have the right to an appeals process, which can take a considerable length of time to get through, as long as ten years in exceptional cases, with applications from some countries having more success than others:

Natives of the Democratic Republic of Congo enjoyed the highest success rate in their appeals with 73 per cent having the International Protection Office decision refusing them asylum set aside followed by Zimbabwe (60 per cent) and Malawi and Pakistan (both 46 per cent).

The lowest success rate in appeals was recorded by applicants from Georgia and Algeria with only 15 per cent having the IPO decision on their status overturned.

Other countries whose applicants had low success rates on appeal included Nigeria and Albania.

IPAS chairperson, Hilkka Becker, said the tribunal had made a significant contribution to the international protection system in Ireland by making the process more efficient and ensuring its consistency “with fairness and natural justice.”

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/number-of-appeals-by-people-denied-asylum-in-ireland-up-over-300-last-year-1640917.html

amykl_1987

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122488021#Comment_122488021

but they aren't even remotely close

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122487949#Comment_122487949

It’s like trying to argue human rights with ISIS supporters, the only views acceptable to to them are the ones they agree with.

Who are the “ISIS supporters” in that argument? Because from what it looks like, it’s the people who are trying to argue that people should be deprived of human rights are trying to make an argument that appeals to the masses.

It doesn’t make one bit of difference who decides whose point of view is more correct, that’s the beauty of an already existing, established and respected legal system which makes determinations about the validity of any arguments either way, which some people appear quite willing to pretend doesn’t exist as it’s inconvenient for the arguments they’re trying to make.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122488004#Comment_122488004

Your figures are clear demonstration that the international protection system isn’t being exploited though? If anything the high number of rejections indicates that anyone attempting to is simply unable to exploit the international protection system. There are ways to get around the system and exploit illegal methods of entering into and remaining in the country illegally, but that is not the system, it’s outside of the international protection system!

Limiting employment is not a deterrent, limiting employment has a negative impact on the economy of any country, and there’s plenty of evidence to support that, whereas there is no evidence to suggest that limiting employment acts as a deterrent to illegal immigration:

https://theconversation.com/hotels-and-employment-arent-major-pull-factors-for-refugees-heres-what-really-draws-people-to-move-211796

https://cepr.org/voxeu/columns/scarring-effects-employment-bans-asylum-seekers

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122488042#Comment_122488042

I wouldn’t expect they should be though. Is there some reason you think they should be similar? In order to be similar, or even remotely close, there would have to be in place an immediate deportation order on rejection of their application, and deportation proceedings alone take months, on top of an already costly, lengthy and complicated appeals process following rejection of an application.

Geert von Instetten

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122488092#Comment_122488092

It absolutely indicates that the system is being exploited, that IPAT are capable of distinguishing between valid and invalid asylum claims is the bare minimum, to present that as evidence of a functioning asylum system is deluded. If the majority of those applying for a Government scheme are ineligible, the scheme is evidently unfit for propose and potentially being exploited - if the overwhelming majority of applicants for Jobseeker’s Allowance were being refused because they were in employment, the Department of Social Protection would be launching an investigation into the issue. At present estimates, between 50% and 70% of asylum seekers in the State are secondary movements from the rest of the EU, that is manifestly exploitation of the system. Policies of deterrence include limiting employment, which the referenced article notes has a “modest” impact, though I’m of the opinion that increasing the threshold for protection is the primary deterrent, these policies are effective, as Denmark demonstrates.

amykl_1987

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122488104#Comment_122488104

7300 rejected applications in last 20 months, under 100 deportations.

Surely the appeals process isn't that slow given there would already be a stack of rejected applications prior to that or could it be the government want it that way? Is the will to do it there at all.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122488139#Comment_122488139

The appeals process really is that slow.

amykl_1987

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122488165#Comment_122488165

Thqts nuts

Viscount Aggro

Dublin airport is pathetic.

I went through arrivals area recently... a few immigration officers standing around, joking and laughing.

Yes, they were stopping certain people on the tarmac, and it's racial profiling going on.

It needs to be more like Frankfurt airport. The self scanning entry gates on arrival. No passport to scan? You are not getting in.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122488120#Comment_122488120

It isn’t the least bit deluded to present evidence that the system is operating as intended by demonstrating that it is operating as intended, regardless of the number of applications, regardless of the number of applications approved or rejected. There is no indication or reason to suspect exploitation within the system. There is every indication of exploitation outside of the system, which is something which Denmark will find itself having to grapple with in the coming years as a result of it’s immigration policies which have been deemed to be in violation of international human rights law.

I don’t care one way or the other for your opinion if you haven’t any evidence to support it. As for your argument equating exploitation of the welfare system with exploitation of the immigration system, well that’s an argument that’s been put forward before, without any evidence:

https://archive.ph/yctAn

No mystery there, it’s David McWilliams.

Geert von Instetten

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122488206#Comment_122488206

Assessing the validity of asylum claims is one aspect of the asylum system, that it is functioning properly is the minimum expected. It remains the case that between 50% to 70% of asylum seekers in the State are secondary movements from the EU - to argue that the system is functioning because IPAT are capable of issuing first instance decisions is absolutely deluded. As your own sources indicate, policies of deterrence are effective, Denmark demonstrates that and I expect that the EU will follow eventually.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122488004#Comment_122488004

I believe Ireland had the highest rate for one month recently, is that the case longer term?

Ireland's not in a position to implement the Danish approach for numerous reasons but the most obvious one is that we can't simply push people towards other EU countries, which is all Denmark appears to be doing.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122487279#Comment_122487279

There's been several posts on this thread of 'research' and 'facts' found to have come from eugenics sites.

All were under the guise of looking for reasonable debate while demeaning IPAs in some form as an inferior group.

Personally I just consider it hatemongering and don't think too much about whether it's from people who'd meet the criteria for eugenicist, far-right, xenophobic, white-supremicists, hard right, extremist cult etc

H_Lime

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122469476#Comment_122469476

Purely as a counterpoint in the spirit of fairness....

What do you think fionnula and fintan would do if an ipas centre was to open up across the road in their leafy suburb of well to do folk? The suburb with tall electric gates, private education and private medical insurance.

They're not going to be draped in tri colours at a barracade being tear gassed. They're going to pick up the phone and ring the developer friend who's right with (insert any party) and whisper in his shell like that this just won't do.

Ten or twenty of those phone calls to the right ears is far more effective.

Never be dismissive of an angry proletariat, let them eat cake tends to lead to problems...

Just an observation :)

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122488902#Comment_122488902

Well if they have tall electric gates, they probably wouldn't be that bothered. There is social housing already in those areas. Some "natives" get lucky enough to live in places they could never afford on their own. If you want to kick them back to Coolock and replace them with IPAs then you can break it to them.

I just think it's kind of silly in this day and age to be falling for grifters' nonsense. It's not some mysterious bogemen of your "Fionnula and Fintan" sipping champagne and thinking 'how can we fuck with the plebs today my dear - oh, I know, wouldn't it be jolly good if we got some Syrians in claim asylum".

Thinking you would have some kind of victory by putting possible chancers up in expensive luxury accommodation to piss off those imagined bogeymen is bonkers.

Scar001

So the 7300 rejections in the last 20 months.

Have they to fend for themselves and paddle their own canoe??

amykl_1987

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122489086#Comment_122489086

NO. They appeal courtesy of the support of the NGO sector and drag it out forever. I didn't realise the appeals took so long

Geert von Instetten

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122488346#Comment_122488346

Ireland has the highest per capita rate of asylum applications per recent EU statistics, yes. In as far as deterrence is concerned, Ireland is an island on the edge of the EU, Denmark is a country bordering Sweden and Germany, two perennial asylum destinations, the idea that Ireland is in less of a position to implement policies of deterrence is laughable. Between 50% and 70% of asylum applicants in the State are secondary movements, policies of deterrence would deter that majority from abandoning existing asylum claims in other EU Member States and exploiting the asylum system.

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122489086#Comment_122489086

The majority will stay and eventually will be granted citizenship. They will get all the supports they need until then. Processing applications is a waste of time and money as we will never deport significant numbers. We would actually be better off scrapping processing as in reality it serves no purpose.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122487110#Comment_122487110

It's just when I'd think of somebody with no identity my first thought thought would be the hatebots spewing back whatever the algorithms have told them this week... 'bogus' asylum seekers, burn the mosques, Ireland is full, it's the NGOs, it's ROG, it's the hoteliers, it's the MSM, 'safe' countries...

Does Ireland even have the best welfare rate? I tried googling myself and actually couldn't find a comparison.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122489118#Comment_122489118

By recent statistics you mean that one recent month or were there more?

Ireland can't implement Denmark's approach because we can't simply push people towards other EU countries, we're too dependent on the continued success of the union. Not to mention the folly in investing heavily in something which has no long term future.

I'm not sure how Denmark even intends to continue it's approach anyway, now that it's had this about turn and wants into the migration pact