Time for a zero refugee policy? - *Read OP for mod warnings and threadbans - updated 11/5/24*

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122507938#Comment_122507938

Who’s saying that though? Because that’s not what you were claiming originally. Of course an increase in the population will require an increase in public spending on public services, and the current impact due to the lack of funding has always been there. If nothing changes, then I’d be in agreement with you that an increase of 100,000 in the local population would significantly impact upon services as they are currently being provided. The plan contains proposals to support the increase in the population. That’s the key part you keep leaving out.

8 out of 10 school got zero applications to ads for positions and schools are back in 2 week with 550 unfilled positions.

So what? That’s always been the case. It has nothing to do with immigration, though one of the means to address the shortage would be to increase immigration to try and attract teachers from abroad who are qualified to teach in Ireland (that too takes time), but it is also supported by Government initiatives to increase places in Ireland for teacher training and more provisions for teaching assistants in schools:

All contained in this report:

https://assets.gov.ie/246552/96fc2eb5-b7c9-4a17-afbc-de288a471b3f.pdf

RoyalCelt

Sweden now following in Denmark's footsteps. I wonder what countries will be top of their list to re-emigrate to? I'm going to take a wild guess and say we'll be seeing an increase in lads coming from Sweden. Has Roderic tweeted out in Swedish yet? Would probably need a few additional languages for some of these though.

https://twitter.com/RMXnews/status/1824040900013494736?t=qfkjRFR4d1BKeftP7DlK8g&s=19

amykl_1987

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122507983#Comment_122507983

And given our inability so far to keep pace with the infrastructure needs, the plan is rubbish. The only part of the plan they will succeed in is the 1000000 extra people.

On Paper v reality in this country are a million miles apart

Headshot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508011#Comment_122508011

Bribing them to leave, god they really fucked up didnt they

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508014#Comment_122508014

They won’t even succeed in that much, it simply isn’t feasible. The most helpful thing anyone can do is take both claims with a pinch of salt rather than getting their knickers in a bunch over nothing.

amykl_1987

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122507983#Comment_122507983

24 years ago.

How has that come along.....

https://www.rte.ie/archives/2020/0625/1149536-metro-dublin/

batman_oh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508020#Comment_122508020

One of our more prominent posters swore it was all far right lies. All their Swedish friends think they did a great job and love all the new arrivals.

Also Denmark, Sweden and Finland are joining forces to help deal with the problems Sweden has resulting from unchecked mass migration the exact way we are currently doing it:

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/nordic-countries-join-forces-combat-spread-swedish-gang-crime-2024-08-14/

Geert von Instetten

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122507874#Comment_122507874

As regards EU asylum claims, the discrepancy between the increase in asylum claims in the EU and the increase in asylum claims in Ireland is considerable. Asylum applications in the EU increased 50% from 2021 to 2022, in Ireland they increased 400% from 2021 to 2022. Compared with pre-COVID figures, there was a 34% increase in asylum applications in the EU between 2019 and 2022, there was a 186% increase in Ireland. 
As regards the Danish model of asylum, Denmark remains an EU Member State and is involved in EU cooperation as regards asylum. The Danish model is consistent with EU and international law. Policies of deterrence are being adopted by multiple EU Member States including Sweden which reported the lowest level of asylum applications in decades. Policies of deterrence would be particularly effective in Ireland, considering Ireland’s geography and the fact that the majority - between 50% to 70% - of asylum applications in the State are a consequence of secondary movement. Quality of life in Denmark is one of the highest in the EU, higher than in Ireland.

Real Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508011#Comment_122508011

Paying chancers to voluntary leave, Christ above the west is rapidly falling apart kowtowing to these frauds, just feck them out like any sensible country would do, I know for a fact they would not stand for this in middle eastern countries. So why the heck should we sit back and take it while our own natives suffer, none of this make any sense.

Geert von Instetten

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508011#Comment_122508011

Sweden recorded the lowest level of asylum in decades after implementing policies of deterrence consistent with the Danish model.

RoyalCelt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508093#Comment_122508093

It's kinda too late for Sweden though. They had too many years like we're having now where Denmark nipped it in the bud. Us Europeans have really become a soft touch. We get walked all over by our governments.

Our only hope is Europe becomes right wing. It will too long for Ireland. We're cornered. Our right wing parties are in power and leading this madness. The opposition are left wing and would double down.

Scar001

Tuam next 100+ IPAs on their way.

Geert von Instetten

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508229#Comment_122508229

I agree that the extent of the issue in Sweden is significant, I mention it because Sweden was one of the primary destinations for asylum seekers and the introduction of policies of deterrence has altered that considerably - it is evidence of the effectiveness of policies of deterrence. The problem is in implementing them in a timely manner, considering the political response to the asylum crisis, I’d be inclined to agree that European politics (or an economic crisis) will have an impact before any domestic policies.

Real Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508311#Comment_122508311

Saw that, throwing out the Ukrainians, must be more money housing the other lot. Don't think the local community will be to happy with this.

https://www.tuamherald.ie/2024/08/15/tuam-hotel-to-home-100-asylum-seekers/

Real Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508451#Comment_122508451

Too much money to be made for a small few and NGO hacks.

Downlinz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122507949#Comment_122507949

Sinn Fein, the only party running enough candidates to form an alternative.

Do people think we don't live in a democracy where FF&FG can be voted out or what's with that question?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508065#Comment_122508065

As regards EU asylum claims, the discrepancy between the increase in asylum claims in the EU and the increase in asylum claims in Ireland is considerable. Asylum applications in the EU increased 50% from 2021 to 2022, in Ireland they increased 400% from 2021 to 2022. Compared with pre-COVID figures, there was a 34% increase in asylum applications in the EU between 2019 and 2022, there was a 186% increase in Ireland. 

That comparison doesn't make any sense? You're comparing a single country which has had years of relatively small numbers of asylum claims compared to other countries in the EU, with the EU as a whole, in a single year post-travel restrictions when there was a war going on in Eastern Europe and everyone and their mother was trying to get to safety. The more relevant figures then in that case are the total number of asylum seekers across the EU in 2022, and what percentage of that figure applied for asylum in Ireland:

A total of 13,651 applications for international protection were made in 2022. This marked a significant increase from previous years (a 415% increase from 2021 and a 186% increase from 2019, the last comparable year before COVID-19 travel restrictions), and the highest number of asylum applications on record in Ireland. The top three countries of origin were Georgia, Algeria and Somalia. Applications for international protection in Ireland accounted for 1.3% of the EU total.

Annual Report on Migration and Asylum 2022: Ireland - The European Migration Network (emn.ie)

(bold emphasis my own)

As regards the Danish model of asylum, Denmark remains an EU Member State and is involved in EU cooperation as regards asylum. The Danish model is consistent with EU and international law. Policies of deterrence are being adopted by multiple EU Member States including Sweden which reported the lowest level of asylum applications in decades. Policies of deterrence would be particularly effective in Ireland, considering Ireland’s geography and the fact that the majority - between 50% to 70% - of asylum applications in the State are a consequence of secondary movement.

Of the 27 Member States in the EU, or the 46 Member States in the Council of Europe, how many is 'multiple', that are adopting deterrence policies similar to that of Denmark and the UK? You could have put the Swedish claim in it's proper context, but that would have shown that there are good reasons for the year-on-year decline - the Swedish economy, much like the UK, is in bits. It's why for the first time they have net emigration, and that's not a good thing:

The data shows a 15 percent year-on-year decrease in immigration in Sweden during the early part of 2024, while emigration rose by 60 percent over the same period. Asylum applications have continued to fall, reaching their lowest level since 1997.

The trend is particularly evident among people born in countries like Iraq, Somalia, and Syria, where net immigration figures were negative in 2023. According to preliminary statistics from Statistics Sweden, the country has experienced negative net immigration up to May of this year.

Sweden transforms from welcoming haven to net emigration (economymiddleeast.com)

Economic forecast for Sweden - European Commission (europa.eu)

Policies of deterrence would be effective in doing what, exactly? Because apart from tanking a country's economy, which they are highly effective in doing, they don't do much else, well, they're not particularly cost effective either as the asylum seekers, even if Sweden, Denmark or indeed Italy ever DO ever manage to send an asylum seeker to a third country - they'll just leave that country and apply for asylum in the same country again! There's nothing to suggest that similar policies which haven't worked anywhere else, would fare any better in Ireland, even considering the idea that between 50 - 70% of applications for asylum in Ireland are a consequence of secondary movement. That's really not any different to anywhere else, when you consider what is meant by the term secondary movement:

The total number of applications (gross number) in Europe is higher than the actual number, as many are registered in more than one country. Around one quarter of all asylum seekers in Denmark are returned to other countries or accepted back to Denmark from other countries because of fingerprints or visa (Dublin procedure), and some have their case dismissed for other reasons.

Number of refugees in Denmark compared to rest of Europe

Quality of life in Denmark is one of the highest in the EU, higher than in Ireland.

So what? They're also one of the world's leading producers of sperm for the export market:

The Brexit crisis nobody is talking about? Our need for Danish sperm | WIRED (archive.ph)

I guess it depends on how you quantify quality of life and measure it and compare it, but I wouldn't want to live there, so perhaps that's why I'm not seeing your point.

creeper1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508528#Comment_122508528

They are in no way, shape or form an alternative.

amykl_1987

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508586#Comment_122508586

You keep posting these links to report, governments white papers etc. you seem to have some confidence that government will deliver on the "plan" however we don't see the infrastructure and services part of the plan coming to fruition. That all needs to be started now. Get there is no planning applications under way for the new houses, schools, hospitals etc currently lodged.

Limerick would need 40000 new homes by 2040 given average occupancy in the state is 2.6 people per unit, so I presume you have a link showing the plan to build these houses and apartments, the required major water and sewage upgrades are underway, the energy grid upgrades to facilitate this are underway, the new school and healthcare facilities are all underway?

There is a video on Twitter of a Dundrum resident speaking to a garda the other day. They have no Garda in the area, and one elderly doctor who has no room for more patients. Surely the government would have figured out this bit first. Provides services then increase the population, but it's been done the wrong way around.

And if these folks do get rejected, appeal, then an amnesty, what next for the areas they are dumped in?

Or will they all migrate towards Dublin city centre? Putting an ever increasing demand for piss poor supply on housing, driving rents up even further. Paschal Donoghue says Dublin city centre is not dying. The chap needs to take a walk around OConnell street and surrounding areas. It's uninviting, some areas just off OConnell Street are full of intimidating groups of men loitering about and those Roma folks, streets are filthy and some areas reek of Urine.

I kinda like the PB4P idea if it was done right. Let the asylum seekers work. No state accommodation provided, no HAP, no social welfare, Give them a PPSN and and tell them they are on their own, they dont qualify for social welfare until they have worked for a year minimum. Let's see how long they stick around. Any criminal involvement and your out the door.

Reality. Government have no plan other then lining the pockets of themselves as landlords and making a small few people very wealthy off the back of ridiculous contracts. And when this all comes crumbling down when a recession hits, it will be the ordinary Irish working person who takes the biggest hit.

dh1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508586#Comment_122508586

Your very good at putting your own hypothesis on data and manipulating it to suit your own agenda.

Would you have any supporting evidence to support the hypothesis that deterring asylum seekers "tanks" an economy.

You might not want to live in Denmark but Scandinavian countries overwhelmingly rank top countries for quality of life.

When you also have these same countries Sweden, Denmark and Finland tightening emigration policy when traditionally it's the most progressive region on the planet, there is obviously a reason. The reason been, the have discovered that this mass migration does not bring a overall positive contribution.

Norway outside of three EU doesn't have the same issues to deal with.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/rankings/quality-of-life

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508611#Comment_122508611

You keep posting these links to report, governments white papers etc. you seem to have some confidence that government will deliver on the "plan"…

I wouldn’t go thaaaat far 😬

however we don't see the infrastructure and services part of the plan coming to fruition. That all needs to be started now. Get there is no planning applications under way for the new houses, schools, hospitals etc currently lodged.

Good idea:

https://geohive.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=26b6e93dcd1044ff8fa2bd1a772a6080

It’s an interactive map of all the 2040 projects currently going on around the country and the different stages in the process they’re at.

Bad idea:

https://www.thejournal.ie/dundrum-tipperary-asylum-seekers-6456372-Aug2024/

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508681#Comment_122508681

Would you have any supporting evidence to support the hypothesis that deterring asylum seekers "tanks" an economy.

I do:

https://www.bruegel.org/sites/default/files/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/RefugeeReturnOCPPC-1.pdf

Purely from an economic standpoint, attempts to deter asylum seekers has the opposite effect on an economy than any perceived benefit. It’s nothing more than a costly and futile political exercise that appeals to short-term types only thinking of their own wants.

When I see countries like the Nordic countries topping quality of life lists, and Ireland is up there too btw, I don’t pay much heed to them, they’re often nothing more than clickbait lists. When I see countries that were once perceived internationally as being beacons of liberal ideology and democracy and so on, it doesn’t take much to scratch beneath the surface to realise that they have historically failed to integrate immigrants and asylum seekers into the host nation. Historically they’ve done exactly the opposite, which is why social integration fails. Immigrants are traditionally perceived as being cheap labour, and when a country begins to experience economic recession, that’s when a handful of the natives start pointing fingers at those people who they believe are responsible.

(That isn’t typically limited to immigrants either, more often it’s just aimed at anyone who doesn’t share their perspective)

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508877#Comment_122508877

Good points here. Countries like Sweden and Denmark can't really be compared to Ireland. As you suggest, they have done a very poor job of integrating non nationals and asylum seekers, leading to the emergence of ghettos and violence on the streets (something that is happening in no way or shape or form in Ireland).

I was watching a video this week of an American travel blogger who has visited dozens of countries in Europe many times over in the last 20 years and he reckons Denmark is by far the unfriendliest. They don't even like tourists visiting the country, never mind people moving there to live.

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508989#Comment_122508989

Maybe they're on to something seeing what's going on with their neighbours ?

newhouse87

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508989#Comment_122508989

Be friendlier thats your plan and it will all be fine no matter how many immigrants come and no matter what their views on western society are?

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508989#Comment_122508989

hmmm, a bit deluded there, it seems like you are saying its European countries fault but it will workout well this time , I wouldnt bet the house on that

rdser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508989#Comment_122508989

And we're doing a great job of integrating people into hotels and tents or the streets? Give me a break. Our efforts are an utter joke. The government have made a pigs ear of it.

batman_oh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122508989#Comment_122508989

And we are doing an amazing job putting 300 in a village of 180 people with no amenities? Or how about 1000 men in tents in a field in rural Dublin with nothing around? Yeah, we are so cleverly integrating them unlike those dumb Swedish. We'll just be friendly and the magic will happen!

Headshot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122509163#Comment_122509163

The magic leprechauns over the rainbow will surely help

bloopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122509040#Comment_122509040

There is an ideology behind all this that does not appear to think about longterm consequences. I have seen it here and over on reddit, as well as in real life.

If the government is being guided by the same ideology then we may be truly fucked.

It appears to take shallow feel good platitudes as the be all and end all, while ignoring real world consequences and reactions.

Any consequences and reactions can just be hand waved away as being the fault of malcontents and the uneducated who just don't understand. As they are not up to the same moral calibre as the practitioner then they can be safely ridiculed, mocked, and insulted.

A morality contest, where the aim is to be purer than the person next to you, all other considerations be damned.