Time for a zero refugee policy? - *Read OP for mod warnings - updated 11/5/24*

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120179925#Comment_120179925

Not my claim, not my words, I own what I said, not what you are claiming I said.

Are travelers given the same rights, access, without any barriers to entry?

screamer

Good debate on upfront on rte1 at the moment. We can’t put a cap on refugees, but they are discussing the difference between economic migrants and refugees.

Jinglejangle69

Why do they just keep quoting Ukrainians in every answer.

Its not about the Ukrainians, it’s about the scammers from Albans Georgia.

They hide and squirm behind Ukraine.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120180048#Comment_120180048

I share your opinion.

hotmail.com

Openly stated on RTE that many of those seeking asylum aren't asylum seekers and they are economic migrants.

This was considered racist a while ago. It's now become normalised.

Jinglejangle69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120180150#Comment_120180150

And when McDowell put it to all the panel, SF, FG they just stayed silent.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120179791#Comment_120179791

Specifically

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120180067#Comment_120180067

Yes they are

Nabber

Firstly these people are unfortunately pawns.

Close the doors, sort out our own problems. Stop dumping these poor unfortunates into office blocks with a mattress. Shuffling them around in buses and forcing them on communities that either don’t want them or can’t support them.

The government need to be transparent, ‘under the cover of darkness’ plays into the hands of racist.

Let’s see some refugees in FoxRock, Ballsbridge etc…..

Refugee programs are harmful, no country is where it is now without hardship. Internationally all countries fail, the fact that refugees exist is the problem not the lack of space to accept refugees.

EU accepts refugees from country X, EU continues to trade with country X. Where the logic? (other than greed).

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120180073#Comment_120180073

Because a sound policy should consider it all?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120180318#Comment_120180318

Doubt.

minimary

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120180048#Comment_120180048

Isn't that what happens though, anyone with a bit of get up and go leaves and claims asylum in the west so things never improve in their home countries. So many people who've been catalysts for change in their home countries would easily have been granted asylum. Just look at Zelenski versus Ghani.

I get from a micro perspective how every life is important but from a macro perspective the asylum system wrecks other countries. Going to the west and seeking asylum or being an undocumented worker becomes the brass ring in life rather than achievement in your own country. I remember at the time of the people dying in the back of the truck in the UK, they had come from Vietnam and their families had paid £30k a pop for their passage, that is more than enough to pay for and support a child through University to get a job that the UK will grant you a Visa to come and do.

minimary

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120179902#Comment_120179902

If the Irish State tells you to leave but doesn't make you leave and keeps providing you with food, shelter and an allowance, you'd be a fool to leave and not just brazen it out. Most are still in Ireland just because they had a brass neck and refused to go in spite of their claims being bogus and then we even do an amnesty.

Bobtheman

It would be good if the government published a rejection rate for refugees so it could be compared to other nations.

Secondly what proportion of those rejected are actually deported

My general opinion is that our immigration service is pretty useless.

I know one illegal who has been here five years and who over stayed a visa.

She and her sponsor were easily traceable.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120179671#Comment_120179671

I am going to assume that Vienna does something about antisocial behavior in these desirable social housing developments? I haven't found anything about it online so I am not sure, but there would need to be something different to the hands off approach here if they are to remain desirable.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120179660#Comment_120179660

'They also went legally and just overstayed their visa'

So they went legally and said fcuk it, let's stay illegally? Sher twill be grand. Not fleeing from joblessness, war or poverty, not even economic migrants basically still no sympathy. Just going because great uncle Joe went to Amerikay back in the day and feel entitled to go.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120180943#Comment_120180943

I am not sure why this is always brought up, it is entirely up to the US to decide what they want to do with people who overstay. For most Irish people it makes no difference what they do either.

https://www.irishtimes.com/world/europe/2023/01/31/boats-tents-park-benches-how-eu-countries-are-accommodating-ukrainian-refugees/

interesting article in IT thus morning. Balanced for a change but makes the point Ireland has been over generous to both refugees and asylum seekers

Cruise ship is a great idea

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120180042#Comment_120180042

Diversity isn’t something holy to everyone even it’s a key article of faith for progressives

if Japan chooses not to adopt the approach of Western Europe, that is no less a legitimate plan than what Ireland ( or the Irish government) has elected to do

the biggest sin of progressives is that of arrogance, they believe their view to be unshakably correct and sound

farmingquestion

Government go on about a moral obligation to bring in all these asylum seekers.

Where is the moral obligation to its own citizens?

And where was the moral obligation during covid when we gave 2nd vaccines to young, healthy people while poor countries had no vaccines at all? Oh no, there was no moral obligation to help the world then because they knew the majority of people would kick up a fuss whereas now the majority of people are homeowners and don't care about the flooding of asylum seekers.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120180150#Comment_120180150

And rightly so that it's becoming normalised. It is the stark reality of our open border and open unverified unopposed asylum.

farmingquestion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120180070#Comment_120180070

It's some country so it is.

120 objections can prevent a housing development but we literally have no way of stopping unlimited numbers of asylum seekers coming here.

Varik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120180989#Comment_120180989

There's no change with them, there's no new found balance since the last lying piece of rubbish they put out at the weekend.

Job 1 is still cover the governments ass, who've not rethought their self given mandate but who are just trying to dodge criticism for the all too visible failures in pursuing it.

TomTomTim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120181486#Comment_120181486

Yeah, look at the likes of this

https://twitter.com/thejournal_ie/status/1620389387430236168

They are happy to frame all of this as something that will lead to a murder committed by natives, yet many natives have already been murdered because of these polices, yet there's not a hope in hell that they would highlight anything like that. Irish "journalists" are honestly one of the slimmest groups in the nation.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120180779#Comment_120180779

Refugees are, by definition, not rejected, they have been awarded refugee status.

I think you mean what is the acceptance/rejection rate for asylum-seekers (AS)?

The Examiner reports this for 2018:

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30920320.html

The Irish authorities had the lowest rate of refusal to applications from asylum seekers of any of the EU’s 28 member states last year.

Only 15% of first-time decisions on asylum applications in Ireland were rejected, compared to an EU average of 63%.

A total of 1,275 asylum seekers in the Republic were granted protection last year, of which 815 were awarded refugee status.

A further 215 were given subsidiary protection which recognises they faced a considerable risk if returned to their former country of habitual residence, while another 235 were granted permission to stay in Ireland on humanitarian grounds.

In addition, 340 individuals were granted refugee status under a resettlement programme. The overwhelming majority were Syrians.

trashcan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120180150#Comment_120180150

Asylum Seeker is just a term to denote anyone who has made a claim for asylum. Therefore everyone who has applied is, by definition, an asylum seeker. Whether their claim is genuine is of course another matter. It bothers me slightly that people don’t seem to recognise the difference between an asylum seeker and a refugee. They are not the same thing. A refugee is someone who has been accepted as having a genuine need for protection.

trashcan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120181963#Comment_120181963

They can’t even get the basic maths right in that article. 815 Awarded Refugee status plus 215 awarded Subsidiary Protection is a total of 1030 awarded protection. The remaining 235 ( which comes to 1265, not 1275) would have been given leave to remain, which means their asylum claim was rejected. You may say, so what, they got to stay, but it’s still shoddy journalism.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120181857#Comment_120181857

yet many natives have already been murdered because of these polices

What policy murdered a native?

How do you define a native?

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120182491#Comment_120182491

Yes, definitions and language are important.

I am for accepting genuine refugees, above and beyond the IRRP programme.

I suggest a limit of 1% of pop.

I am against AS, and I suggest a zero AS policy.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120182845#Comment_120182845

The idea of a "limit" sounds great in theory, but it runs counter to all international refugee law. You cannot say 'we will accept a certain quota of asylum seekers, but then we will have a cut off point and accept no more'. International refugee law states that you cannot refuse to accept any asylum seeker who arrives at your border seeking shelter and deport them back out of the country.

The situation with Ukrainian people is different of course in that they are not legally classed as 'asylum seekers', so it's not entirely clear if a limit could be applied in their case.

Bobtheman

Unfortunately I cant see Leo or Martin reforming this system. Eyes on a big EU job.

However if you are housed and that's not an issue for you then a right wing party could get a lot of votes on this issue. Get your vote

Because people see inflation as being caused by external factors.

They see this as fixable by the government. Failure to fix will only help a right wing party.

Personally I would not vote for such a party but I would not be surprised to see a genuinely anti refugee TD elected thís tíme.

They had a particularly poor record in the past but that could change by 2024

trashcan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120182845#Comment_120182845

But some (and I stress “some” ) asylum seekers may have legitimate claims, so how do you determine who is a genuine refugee without putting them through the system ? Now if you want to argue that the system should be better and more efficient then I doubt anyone would disagree with you, but it’s a complex process, with a lot of legalities to consider, and takes a lot of resources. Process them all at the airport and put the ones who don’t succeed straight back on the plane sounds great, but it’s not really practical.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120182916#Comment_120182916

However if you are housed and that's not an issue for you then a right wing party could get a lot of votes on this issue. Get your vote

Surely you should be voting left of centre, more social supports, more social housing?

The policy of privatising our housing "obligations" is a right of centre policy.

You will get certain weak minded individuals voting for the blame everything on Johnny Foreigner candidate, but that isn't going to improve their situation at and in all likely hood make it far worse.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120180527#Comment_120180527

What are the numbers for this claim? I looked at Irish deportation orders vs the number of required enforcements of that order and it’s not very high at all, less than 200 deportations and less than 20 enforcements, the rest self deporting voluntarily.

Patrick2010

Matt Cooper had the usual discussion on the recent protests who were all in agreement they are highly organized by the right wing, no one on to post an alternative view.

Read texts saying we could be taking in unvetted criminals, Matts response? Well we have plenty of Irish criminals

Made a big deal of some text from some nutter saying all these immigrants are actually NATO soldiers, his fellow contributors loved jumping on this. I’m quite sure they could have picked rational posts but that wouldn’t have suited the agenda

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120182976#Comment_120182976

It's not really a complex process, it's only as complex as we make it.

The individual either meets the criteria or doesn't for refugee status which is well defined. It is up to the applicant to prove they meet the bar.

I agree that same day turnaround is not practical, but fast turnaround is. And a faster appeals process is as well. The really long winded appeals (judicial reviews) are often on the grounds that the wrong decision was arrived at because the process was not followed.

What is really needed is a streamlined, well defined, robust algorithm for processing applicants. No deviation from the process, and no tolerance for stalling on the part of the applicant. If a well structured process is in place then vexatious appeals can be thrown out quickly and judicial reviews wrapped up even faster. A rapid appeals process that presumably generally comes to the same conclusion as the original would certainly be a push rather than a pull factor that we have today. It might encourage these applicants to come here legitimately instead.

It's really a problem of (not) wanting to resource the issue properly. Nothing else.

minimary

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120183516#Comment_120183516

I think as well get rid of leave to remain, either you qualify under refugee or subsidary protection or you don't. Leave to remain is a popularity/brass neck contest either you get enough people to kick up a fuss or you blackmail the Minister for Justice by doing something like a hunger strike. Take away the leave to remain process and you've streamlined the process already

minimary

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120183008#Comment_120183008

"For example, in 2019, the last year deportations took place, there were more than 2,000 such orders issued, but just 298 were enforced. In 2018, there were 1,117 orders issued and 163 enforced." https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/politics/arid-40922036.html

bloopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120183381#Comment_120183381

But earlier today Morning Ireland told me it was those dastardly anti vaxxers that were organising the protests.

Nosler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120182873#Comment_120182873

Plenty countries dont accept asylum seekers. Nothing happens to them....

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120183647#Comment_120183647

Hey thanks for the link. I see, I apologize for overlooking. Yes, there are thousands of deportation orders 'open' and only 177 reportedly voluntarily and formally deported, and only 16 have been enforced (were they arrested doing some crime?) Curious.

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/social-affairs/2022/10/24/177-people-the-subject-of-deportation-orders-have-left-state-so-far-this-year/

There is evidence that a significant number of those issued with a deportation order voluntarily leave the State without notifying the immigration authorities of their departure, he said. As a result the number of live deportation orders does not reflect the number of people in the State without permission.

In the year to date the total number of people who have been removed, or who removed themselves and notified the department of that, is 177.

That comprises 16 enforced deportations; 87 self-deportations; 30 removals under the European Communities (Free Movement of Persons) Regulations 2015 (applicable only to EU citizens and those with EU rights of residency); two persons transferred under the Dublin III regulation (requiring that asylum applications be made in the first EU country of arrival); and 42 people, most of whom would be deemed “vulnerable” individuals, who were subject of voluntary returns.

The cost of flights associated with enforced deportations and EU removals from January 2022 to date was €147,148, excluding voluntary returns.

Provisional operational costs associated with the investigation of relevant cases and removal from the State in relation to the 16 enforced deportations were €152,550.

Operational costs associated with EU removals are not currently available, the spokesman said.

The voluntary return costs to June 2022, the latest information available, amounted to €438,512. That sum includes pre-return counselling, flights, medical supports, escorts and a post-return reintegration grant.

The non-EU destinations for deportees included Barbados, Albania , Bangladesh, Brazil , Mauritius, Malawi, Philippines and Georgia. EU destinations included Poland, Lithuania, Romania, Germany, France, Slovakia, Belgium, Sweden, Spain and Greece.

bmc58

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120182976#Comment_120182976

How can people seeking asylum arrive in Ireland off a plane with no passports?I'm sure laws are asylum seekers must be processed in the first country they manage to get to.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120183782#Comment_120183782

I think someone mentioned Japan earlier as part of this point.

Are they subject to the same treaties, in question, as Japan is? Or what other countries are being ellipsis'd to here

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120184086#Comment_120184086

The bizarre thing about Japan and their anti-immigration and anti-refugee stance is that they are depopulating at an absolutely frightening rate. Their population is forecast to drop from the current 125 million to 106 million by 2050 and to 75 million by 2100 (less than half of where they are now).

Goodness knows what this will do to their economy. By 2050, it is predicted that 40% of the Japanese population will be over the age of 65.

Grassy Knoll

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178533#Comment_120178533

I’m afraid this is misleading despite what the league position might say. This reflects consumption which in turn represents income less savings. For Ireland our measured savings ratio has been elevated so this needs to be considered in tandem with consumption to in turn get a true sense of income. According to data we are saving relatively more vs other EU states, there fore our table position

added to this there is actually a separate ongoing debate as to whether the CSO data understate our consumption i.e. we may be spending / consuming more than CSO data indicate. Net point is we are a wealthy country whatever way you seek to cut it.

DebDynamite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120183640#Comment_120183640

Whether or not someone’s application was successful or not, all they had to do was brazen it out for two years at the expense of the taxpayer, and under Helen McEntee’s wonderful regularization scheme (amnesty) were eligible to apply for legal residence status which would then pave the way to apply for full citizenship.

Even better, the application fee was free, while the illegal immigrants - who don’t get anything handed to them - had to pay €500, but had to be here for 4 years!

No wonder all the “asylum seekers” are flocking here, they want to have all their ducks in a row for when the next amnesty comes around 🙄

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120184206#Comment_120184206

Pride cometh before the fall

maebee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120184085#Comment_120184085

Indeed. They would have to have produced a passport to board a plane to Ireland. Why would a genuine person fleeing a war-torn country feel the need to destroy their passport as they arrive in Ireland?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120184871#Comment_120184871

They would have to have produced a passport to board a plane to Ireland.

Needs verification. Are origin countries actually enforcing customs.

maebee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120184890#Comment_120184890

Even if "Origin Countries" are not enforcing customs, EU countries certainly are. As there are no direct flights from Afghanistan to Ireland, this person had to fly to Ireland from some airport in Europe.

https://uk.knews.media/news/asylum-seeker-without-accommodation-is-left-to-sleep-on-streets-the-irish-times/