Time for a zero refugee policy? - *Read OP for mod warnings - updated 11/5/24*

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120195450#Comment_120195450

Honestly, I focused on the 'own door' accommodation component of the paper. The clauses I quoted in my e-mails were derived exclusively from that section.

My primary reservation was that it would serve as a pull factor. Given the 500% YoY increase in non-Ukrainian IPAs...

To reiterate, there was no 'going off' or however you choose to characterize it. Actually, given the current focus on migration issues, I wonder would now be an opportune moment to reignite those threads? Perhaps, my local representatives might be more receptive to reservations around migration at this time.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120195730#Comment_120195730

So you didn't read the paper, you saw that part which has been taken completely out of context (for obvious reasons) on the internet and decided to engage with your local reps on that sole basis.

Perhaps, my local representatives might be more receptive to reservations around migration at this time.

I imagine if you take the time to educate yourself on the actual proposals instead of formulating an opinion on social media rage then yes you might have a more productive interaction.

As for the current situation and you predicting it. You didn't. Unless you predicted the war in Europe and the global destabilisation that has caused.

Quite the oracle if you did though.

Any chance you could throw up this correspondence containing said predictions? Obviously remove any identifying features.

In your own time. 👍️

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120195780#Comment_120195780

I read the paper. I passages I quoted were from the components dealing explicitly with 'own door' accommodation. It was not taken out of context. I pointed out the juxtaposition of offering 'own door' accommodation with the commitment to accelerating the adjudication process. It was obvious that the system would be overwhelmed by the inevitable increase in applications.

Actually, I'm not on social media. The only platform that I engage with, albeit to a very limited degree is Boards. I formulated my opinion having read the white paper and articulated my position based on my concerns around the 'own door accommodation' proposal. My specific concerns related to asylum seekers originating from MENA and sub-Saharan Africa. I did not predict or reference the war in Ukraine. Given that non-Ukrainian IPAs have increased 500% YoY, with many originating from Georgia, Albania, Algeria, South Africa, Zimbabwe, and Nigeria, I would suggest that my prediction was rather accurate. Having said that, it didn't required Oracle-like powers to deduce that outcome..

There's no chance I'll be sharing private interactions with my local representatives with you 'Boggles'. Frankly, it's none of your business and it's borderline creepy that you would request access to those e-mails.

You'll be waiting 👍️

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120195875#Comment_120195875

So not only did you not read the paper, there was no oracle'sque correspondence with anyone.

Would that be fair and accurate?

We will leave it there so.

But you should read the paper, it's actually quite good, aspirational and now unworkable because of circumstance, but it does contain most of things being called for on here.

Hopefully it is implemented in the future, or at lease the bulk of it.

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120195923#Comment_120195923

It might be 'fair and accurate' in your head 'Boggles', but I suggest that may not hold true for the majority of readers consuming this thread.

I read the white paper, expressed my concerns, suggested an outcome that has quantitatively come to pass, the results of which are, that the government is now struggling / unable to source accommodation, due to the explosive growth in IPA numbers.

You might characterize the white paper as 'aspirational'. I perceived it as delusional and given the current situation, my critique of said white paper was rather more accurate than yours. It won't be implemented in the future, because Roderick O'Gorman and the wider Green Party will be roundly spanked in the next GE.

Yes; let's leave it there. As always, pleasure doing business with you 'Boggles' 👍️

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120195987#Comment_120195987

You might characterize the white paper as 'aspirational'. I perceived it as delusional and given the current situation, my critique of said white paper was rather more accurate than yours.

Of which there is zero evidence of. So I have made up my mind on that, which I am entitled to, correct?

Anyway I wouldn't like to speak for the majority reading this thread.

But what I do know is (because I actually read it) that certain things being called for on this thread, which are reasonable and grounded in reality TBF, are contained in the paper.

Have a good one 'Hamachi' 😕 👍️

enricoh

Ireland has one of the highest debt per head levels in the world. Totally reliant on corporation tax now with it being 25% of all tax collected.

180k refugees estimated here by government officials by the end of this year with worst case scenario 19k having no bed by the end of next month. Still no limits says our politicians. Now anyone for raising the pension age to 70 to pay for this crap!

https://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-has-one-of-the-highest-per-capita-debt-burdens-in-the-world-5986591-Feb2023/

lawred2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120166867#Comment_120166867

not even close to being the same thing

TomTomTim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120196049#Comment_120196049

They don't care. It's addressed every time it comes up, yet it never stops them making the same argument again and again. They are clutching at straws, and they know it, hence why they ignore all the counter arguments.

enricoh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120196066#Comment_120196066

The best is the lads saying we had 8 million here in the famine so should be no bother again. Some people can't be helped!

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120196049#Comment_120196049

Is it not now?

In the 70s and 80s it was extremely common for young Irish "unvetted males of fighting age" to roll off the ferry in the UK and head straight for the dole office and live in squats in other people's property.

Many tens of thousands of Irish lived illegally in the US (still do), relatives of mine included. cash in hand all the way for a lot of them in the trades. Nobody gave them permission to be there.

It's uncomfortable for you given what you're trying to peddle, but you saying "it's not the same" is just a bumper sticker slogan.

In the UK in particular, the Irish were widely despised by folks whistling the same tune as yourself.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120195245#Comment_120195245

Suit him better to send the army up to the border to stop all the chancers flowing in from the UK.

Its mind boggling that there is no political party taking the publics temperature on this and realising we are all sick of these surplus people who will never contribute anything but will take everything.

I have no issues with people who apply for a visa and come to the country legally to work and contribute.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120196034#Comment_120196034

Approx 250 Billion in debt

I’ve always thought this will come back to bite us in the ass at some stage & I’m sure it will.

plus add in Mica , children’s hospital & the latest care home scandal which is a few billion.

how in the name of God are we still in business

maccored

It is up to the irish government how many refugees we take in. it is at their discretion.

From chatGPT:

did Ireland have a choice in the number of refugees it takes in

Ireland, like other countries, has the discretion to determine the number of refugees it accepts and the process for granting asylum. However, it is also bound by its obligations under international law, including the 1951 Refugee Convention and its 1967 Protocol, which sets out the legal framework for the protection of refugees. Under these agreements, Ireland has an obligation to provide asylum to refugees who are fleeing persecution and are in need of international protection.

Additionally, Ireland participates in various international programs, such as the European Union's resettlement program, which provides a mechanism for the relocation of refugees from outside the EU to member states. This can influence the number of refugees that Ireland takes in.

In summary, while Ireland has the discretion to determine the number of refugees it accepts, it is also subject to its obligations under international law and participation in international programs.

did ireland have an option on the number of Ukrainian refugees it takes in

Yes, Ireland has discretion over the number of Ukrainian refugees it accepts. Ireland is responsible for managing its own immigration and asylum policies, and determines the number of refugees it admits based on various factors, including its resources, infrastructure, and social services.

However, Ireland is also part of the European Union, which has its own policies and procedures for managing the flow of refugees, including the resettlement of refugees from other countries. The EU can also provide support and funding to member states that are accepting refugees, including Ireland.

In conclusion, while Ireland has some discretion over the number of Ukrainian refugees it takes in, its decisions are also influenced by its obligations as a member of the European Union and its participation in EU-wide programs and policies.

So basically blame the eejits that have been voted in and those who voted for them - not the ukrainians, refugees etc etc.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120196133#Comment_120196133

Because our debt is serviceable, we're recording significant surpluses and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

Sovereign debt is not the same as household debt. Ireland is now one of the most fiscally sound countries in Europe.

enricoh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120196112#Comment_120196112

180k refugees in Ireland by years end estimated by government officials yesterday- be grand, won't it?!!

All our 20-somethings will stick around to pay for them n get outbid by the councils/ charities on housing - course they will!

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120196174#Comment_120196174

Did you respond to the wrong post? Sure looks like you did.

enricoh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120196133#Comment_120196133

Better find some whopper oilfield off the west coast fairly lively, when the corporation tax dries up it's gonna get messy lively!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120196166#Comment_120196166

Debt is debt no matter what way you look at it.

servicable at the moment, what’s gonna happen when it isn’t.

History will tell ya the whole economy can crash in this country in a few month’s.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120196186#Comment_120196186

wouldn’t that be some predicament to put to the greens.

lawred2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120196112#Comment_120196112

Interesting response.

I'm not whistling anything. I'm not sure who you've confused me with. I'm ok with our humanitarian obligations in supporting those leaving a war zone.

And I'm aware of our chequered history with emigration.

That's not the context of the post that I responded to though. Was it?

I'm not sure what 50 years ago has to do with the context within which Irish people nowadays emigrating legally for economic reasons were compared with refugees?

Btw I grew up in England of parents who emigrated in the seventies. They lived a good life and were far from being despised. For whatever that's worth as an anecdote.

lawred2

Might be better for our hospitals if our doctors and nurses weren't given such free passage elsewhere as it goes.

hotmail.com

The government is in a panic now.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120196223#Comment_120196223

What about a whopper solar panel field

TomTomTim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120196285#Comment_120196285

Get ready for the full force of the law from Judge Harris

https://twitter.com/Independent_ie/status/1621157751882907649?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1621157751882907649%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=

jmayo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120192167#Comment_120192167

I noticed you ignored my comment how they are detained, not bussed to somewhere and then given free reign of the country.

jmayo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120192827#Comment_120192827

Sure it will make most of those lads arriving without documentation feel right at home.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120192828#Comment_120192828

Ahh the mask is slipping.

You just detest a section of Irish society so would rather see it destroyed.

No boyo the decision time is whether you stand with your fellow Irish people or be considered the enemy.

BTW were the protests on the M50 covered by RTE News.

Funny how protest that closed down biggest road around Dublin got nada coverage.

What are they afraid of?

realdanbreen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120196446#Comment_120196446

I take it you don't have a TV or radio in the house!

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120196112#Comment_120196112

Rubbish, there is no comparison and you know that quite well. The population of the usa in the 70's was approx 205 million so we would have needed all 3 million of our citizens in the 70's to go to the USA illegally for the equivalent impact that we are experiencing in our country now. Also the numbers who went to the UK were a tiny percentage of that country's population which was approx 56m in the 70's.

The rapid increase in our population being imposed on the citizens by the current group of politicians of all hues is unsustainable imo and the impact on services of all kinds can be seen all around the country. We were hugely impacted by the 2008 recession, the bank bailout and then had to adhere to draconian measures the troika introduced. Our country is recovering but many problems remain in housing, health, disability services etc. Nobody has an issue with helping others whether that is Ukranians or others fleeing wars or persecution but as others posted, we need to be realistic in what we can do.

Beasty

Nosler threadbanned

pauly58

I don't know about time for a zero refugee policy but it's definitely time for a referendum on the issue, this is far too important to be left to the Muppets to decide on.

I've always liked the Swiss where if 100k sign a petition on an issue there must then be a referendum.

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120194994#Comment_120194994

I did not once say it’s directly the blame of anyone decision let alone refugees. See though, you have proven nothing can be discussed on this topic publically because fellas like you just lean on buzz words and bleeding hearts.

Here’s a few areas the country is falling apart in for your reference:

• - Housing, both ownership and rent.
• - Wages + cost of living(power, fuel, food, etc)
• - Health, waiting lists, staffing, beds, ambulances
• - military, staffing and wages

bringing in thousands more people into a nation struggling in so many areas will always have an impact, quantifying that is another story.

Can you explain how thousands of economic migrants would not have an impact on the pressures on the housing market?

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120196553#Comment_120196553

Can you explain how thousands of economic migrants would not have an impact on the pressures on the housing market?

Well we had 1000s of "economic migrants" building homes and still do.

The reality is because of skills shortage we will need more.

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120196620#Comment_120196620

I am all for bringing in skilled laborers and professional in sectors where they are needed.

You know very well throwing the barn door open to people with no skills is what’s actually happening though.

We need 50,000 labourers to build the houses the 50,000 new labourers are going to live in.

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120196696#Comment_120196696

Your right, except what we actually need are skilled trades. Trades that do not exist( or operate anywhere near the same standards) in many of the countries many of of the economic migrants come from.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120196664#Comment_120196664

We will need far more than skilled laborers.

Foxhound38

It's very simple, far moreso than we are making it.

People coming from Ukraine - fair enough, let them in, do everything we possibly can to support them. Spend what we need to spend and make what space we possibly can. I have seen crustys arguing on Twitter that making them a special case "demonstrates our casual racism", but I think that's a load of b*llocks. They're a European democracy weathering an invasion - all of Europe has a responsibility to help them, particularly civilians fleeing.

Everybody else coming through the asylum system gets put into specialized and professionally run centre's of far higher quality than the current Direct Provision centres until their claim can be processed, which we should be doing far more quickly than we are currently doing. It should be decided in a matter of weeks, not months or years. We need to know who you are, why you're fleeing, what age you are (and test it where there is even a single doubt in someone who looks adult but is identifying themselves as a minor), do you have a history of criminality. Pass the assessment and you should be supported to live, integrate and work here. Failure to elaborate or cooperate in determining any of the above and you're on the first plane back. Engage in any criminality while here at any point while a guest of the State before gaining citizenship and you are immediately deported back to point of origin. If your asylum claim is rejected you get exactly one appeal before deportation.

It should go without saying that anyone who arrives here having destroyed travel documents en route gets sent on the first plane back to where they came from - no ifs and no buts.

The current ridiculous system doesn't serve anyone including those genuinely seeking asylum, and failure to weed out the pis$takers quickly is unfair on the genuine applicants.

As for general immigration - free movement for EU Citizens, strict Australian style skills-based immigration system based on the needs of our jobs market for everyone else.

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120196752#Comment_120196752

Are you saying we need more people on minimum wage, low hour contracts, who take just about as much from the state as they contribute?

To be clear those people are needed and you could argue critical but do we not have enough ?

I’ve not read anything about a barista or cleaning crisis of late.

ejmaztec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120195610#Comment_120195610

No such history even though our ancestors were in the thick of it in the days of the British Empire? It wasn't just the Anglo-Irish who were involved.😛

It has been said that the Irish won the Empire, the Scots and the Welsh administered it, and the English lost it.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120196797#Comment_120196797

No. I am stating we need skilled trades people not just labourers.

Again this isn't just my opinion.

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120196828#Comment_120196828

We are in agreement there then.

I wonder are figures kept for those who come in and end up in employment or otherwise positively contribute to the exchequer. That would put all this to bed very easily.

Cody montana

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120195135#Comment_120195135

Refugee vs immigrants.

A nation of immigrants blaming immigration for our own governments failing is ridiculous.

They are an easy scapegoat.

This country had benefited greatly from immigrants.

I grew up in the 80’s.

Those were not good times.

Cody montana

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120195360#Comment_120195360

Is it though?

Do most people even care?

keynes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120195293#Comment_120195293

The public intellectuals the IT employs to tell its readers how to think have been nothing short of embarrassing when discussing this issue. To get a taste of the discourse, this is Diarmuid Ferriter's "solution" today:

"...why has the National Consultative Committee on Racism and interculturalism, established in 1998 and disbanded in 2008, not been reborn? A new version of it is badly needed..."

Are these guys for real or what?

TomTomTim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120196876#Comment_120196876

A nation of immigrants blaming immigration for our own governments failing is ridiculous.

Most of us were never immigrants, and as individuals, we've the right to self determination. We won't be shamed because the Irish of the past moved to other nations, as they aren't us. It's beyond ridiculous too that you think that we both owe a debt because of ancestors, and not just that, that it's some kind of endless debt with no limits. We must take in the whole world and destroy our nation because of the past, with absolutely no sense applied. You can keep repeating yourself, do it everyday, but it won't change a thing, we're not going to just sit back and submit because of what some Irish people once did.

screamer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120196321#Comment_120196321

Well the ones stoking fear are the government with their policies and refusal to listen or take any action to address the issues that people are concerned over.

Cody montana

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120196994#Comment_120196994

Never said we owe a debt because of our ancestors.

I said immigration to and from our country has benefited Ireland.

And it has.

I love living in this country.

Our nation is not destroyed or being destroyed.

Not gonna sit back?

What ye gonna change?

TomTomTim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120197050#Comment_120197050

Never said we owe a debt because of our ancestors.

No, but it was clearly implied.

Our nation is not destroyed or being destroyed.

Yes it is. Nearly all of the relevant metrics show us that most things are getting worse and not better. I know that it's pointless though, as we could be sitting on the ashes of society and you'd still say the same thing.

Cody montana

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120197073#Comment_120197073

We’ve never had it so good.

Go to other countries and see what they’re like.

We’re not sitting on the ashes though, are we?