Time for a zero refugee policy? - *Read OP for mod warnings - updated 11/5/24*

StrawbsM

United States - 354 asylum seekers per million inhabitants

Ireland - 513 asylum seekers per million inhabitants

Figures for 2021 https://www.worlddata.info/refugees-by-country.php

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120220548#Comment_120220548

How dare people nudge the conversation with common sense and perspective every few days

If Ireland would like it's 50,000 illegals back, that would be great. How many refugees we wringing hands about in Ireland, again? Less?

Patrick2010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120220278#Comment_120220278

Not this crap again. Try turning up in Australia, USA and Canada and say you're planning on living and working there without a visa and see how far you get. Likewise if you turn up at arrivals with no passport.

Hungry Burger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120220529#Comment_120220529

Yes they should be detained and deported for breaking the laws of the country they entered. If you want to migrate somewhere do it the legal way. Simple really.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120220584#Comment_120220584

50,000 undocumented Irish seemed to manage it in the USA.

cal naughton

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120220574#Comment_120220574

Common sense you say!

The Irish who worked in the us as well as england worked like complete dogs building up those countries.

If the lads in citywest came over and said look ye have a housing crisis here, train me up to be a labourer to give them a start i would say fair cop great idea.

However they are sitting in the citywest playing on their phones waiting wondering how come they haven't been housed in 4 months.

Patrick2010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120220529#Comment_120220529

Thats up to the US, I wouldn't complain if they did. No reason to take in the worlds population and house and feed them just because some Irish stayed working (not looking for to be supported) in the US after their cisa ran out.

maninasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120220590#Comment_120220590

Even if that is true,which I dont believe it is, it's got no relation with implementing a sensible refugee policy in Ireland.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120220574#Comment_120220574

It's not common sense and perspective, it's actual literal whataboutery.

It's up to the US to enforce its immigration laws as mush as it's up to us to enforce ours. If they decide to send 50k back, that's their entitlement.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120220596#Comment_120220596

The Irish who worked in the us as well as england worked like complete dogs building up those countries.

They didn't always work, but they were always treated like 'complete dogs' (often why they didn't work, they were disallowed).

discriminated against, formed gangs, etc. etc.

http://www.victoriana.com/history/irish-political-cartoons.html

The Irish were stereotyped as uncivilized, unskilled and impoverished and were forced to work at the least desired occupations and live in crowded ethnic ghettoes. Irish immigrants often found that they were not welcome in America; many ads for employment were accompanied by the order "NO IRISH NEED APPLY." Throughout the 1800s, as hordes of technologically and agriculturally unskilled Irish immigrants settled in the major cities of the east, several anti-immigrant groups began to develop demonstrating a rise in Irish stereotypes. Nativists reacted to increased Irish immigration with violent riots and increased demands for limits on immigrants' rights. These nativist groups considered the immigrants as a threat and regarded the Catholicism of the Irish as an alien and rebellious religion and culture. During the mid-nineteenth century anti-Catholic riots struck the major eastern cities and vandalism against Catholic institutions became such a common practice that many insurance companies refused to cover Catholic schools and churches. 

'Stealing our jobs, our homes, they don't fit in here, they're backwards, they're violent, cause riots, engage in crime, we should just have a zero refugee policy' etc

I see parallels, apparently so do others who pop in and out of thread. The Irish didn't just show up, eat a warm meal, and get right to work "building the country."

Offer is still open to take back the 50,000 modern undocumented Irish in the USA to anyone calling for a Zero Refugee Policy.

Hungry Burger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120220590#Comment_120220590

They don’t manage very well though, they don’t have bank accounts, PPS no equivalents, have to work cash in hand and in most cases have to rely on legal relatives to support them and are always keeping an eye over their shoulders for the authorities as if they’re caught they are deported 90% of the time. Completely different situation to what happens to every Tom, Dick and Harry who turns up here.

keynes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120220548#Comment_120220548

At the rate it's going, there's going to be tents, refugee camps, ghettoes, the works, scattered all over the country. Larger countries may have the size and capacity to withstand this, but this quickly destroys the character and identity of a small nation. And the latter is the main appeal of Ireland to tourists, not our climate, beaches, prices etc

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120220608#Comment_120220608

A sensible policy for refugees, is not a zero refugee policy.

cal naughton

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120220641#Comment_120220641

I accept your offer to take back the 50k skilled workers who won't be a burden on the state.

Patrick2010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120220590#Comment_120220590

Guarantee they didn't arrive without the correct paperwork but just stayed on illegally. 50k in a country of 300 million is a bit different to 50k in a country of 5 million.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120220663#Comment_120220663

From where?

cal naughton

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120220665#Comment_120220665

From the US. My reply was in response to your last paragraph.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120220676#Comment_120220676

They're already here, I'm in the US.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120220664#Comment_120220664

How can you make such a broad guarantee?

cal naughton

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120220684#Comment_120220684

I know that hence the word taking back! Comprehension not your strong point?

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120220686#Comment_120220686

Have you tried to enter the States without your passport?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120220698#Comment_120220698

Or your prose is the issue. I wasn't offering to "take back" anyone.

10000maniacs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120166439#Comment_120166439

The darker areas in the UK represent houses and infrastructure.

It is not free space for refugees unless something is built there. Unless they want to live in tents.

Houses and Infrastructure have to be built.

10 people thanked you for that comment. My brain hurts.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120220706#Comment_120220706

On what, an Airplane? Not me personally, no. And I've never taken the boat, or the hike over the southern border.

As I said some time earlier on this thread, US Customs is very thorough these days. Especially post-9/11. Our incoming air travelers are typically screened by US Customs agents stationed out at the departure (eg. Shannon) as well as the arrive (eg. Atlanta). I suggested this is how Ireland could avoid people blatantly ripping up their documents mid flight and, somehow getting away with confusing the Irish State Department as to who they really are.

But this doesn't mean the US is lacking in a population of undocumented Irish.

Hungry Burger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120220729#Comment_120220729

How is a little country like Ireland going to set up an Irish pre clearance in all of these countries? Especially considering many of them transit through multiple countries before deciding on which one to get a flight here.

Looney idea.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120220762#Comment_120220762

How is a little country like Ireland going to set up an Irish pre clearance in all of these countries?

Why doesn't the EU set up such pre-clearances?

If Ireland has the embassies, why is the pre-clearance that big of a "how," just do a bit more, and have a preclearance counter for all international flights coming into Ireland.

If Ireland is 'big enough' to accept the flights why not. Or if the argument it is too small and the refugee policy too open, limit the number of direct flights to ireland to the number of gateway originations you can adequately provide preclearance for.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120220778#Comment_120220778

The obvious answer is that it would be hugely expensive and easily circumvented. People would land in Belfast, as seemly they are doing now.

What is actually needed are practical solutions.

1. Consider it an offence to fail to provide identity documentation at a border control post or immigration official and actually prosecute these with custodial sentences.

2. Reduce pull factors such as the welfare offering to arrivals, ability to work after 6 months and the like.

maninasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120220664#Comment_120220664

I want to emphasise that number is contested, many believe the true number is just a fraction of that oft quoted '50,000'.

There is very little evidence to support this number.

Those illegal Irish, wherever they are, aren't claiming refugee status or depending on state welfare.

Basically its a distraction and of no relevance to debate on refugees in Ireland.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120220865#Comment_120220865

Valid point raised, I looked back at my search and the figure is reasonably disputed.

Patrick2010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120220778#Comment_120220778

So aside from ruining our tourism industry by using our hotels as refugee hostels we should start limiting flights into Ireland only to countries that we can setup immigration checks at their airports?, brilliant

Patrick2010

Matt Cooper on having his usual immigration discussion by having on two contributors talking about how the far right is behind any protests against any unlimited take in of refugees

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120221051#Comment_120221051

You want a Zero Refugee Policy? Right?

There's only so much cake.

It is not like your 'tourists' cannot rip up their passports.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120221062#Comment_120221062

Not much value in that statement, it seems QED for the situation? Conservatism is the opposition to unlimited intake of refugees (the majority of the right), and the 'far right' would be in conniptions enough to hit the street about it, while the majority of those on the right are, rather, going about their lives etc. or discussing this only as far as social media or in formal contact with lawmakers, not picketing or demonstration.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120220839#Comment_120220839

The obvious answer is that it would be hugely expensive and easily circumvented. People would land in Belfast, as seemly they are doing now.

Is there not a preclearance agreement to be made with the UK?

Hungry Burger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120221084#Comment_120221084

This is what happens when you try to import red/blue yank style politics into Ireland. The fact of the matter is we never had any ‘far right’ or ‘far left’ in this country until very recently and most parties were in the centre, the farthest left we had was Sinn Fein which wouldn’t have been considered very far left by world standards until recently.

I can tell you for a fact basic common sense immigration policies and border security were certainly not seen as a “Far Right” policy for near on 100 years of statehood, it was seen as a basic right and function of a normal nation state. This whole “Far Right” narrative has only taken hold in the last couple of years.

In today’s Ireland we only have “The left” and “Far left” if you insist on using that terminology, we have no one left in the centre or centre right as the Overton window has shifted so far left.

Jinglejangle69

People in Turkey and Syria are in need of proper help and shelter.

Shame we can’t help because most of our centres are stuffed with scammers from Georgia and Albania.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120221196#Comment_120221196

This is what happens when you try to import red/blue yank style politics into Ireland. The fact of the matter is we never had any ‘far right’ or ‘far left’ in this country until very recently 

How droll, and wrong.

How did Ireland have a revolution a century ago without extremism?

Complain about the label you gave it, the thing it was is yet the same.

In today’s Ireland we only have “The left” and “Far left” if you insist on using that terminology

Rubbish, evidenced by the body of the forum, and it's inexhaustive supply of right wing irish posters with right wing ideas. A Zero Refugee Plan, for instance.

Hungry Burger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120221238#Comment_120221238

I’m not talking about the revolutionary period. I’m talking about the modern Irish state, after the civil war, our politics more or less normalised.

And a few posters on boards.ie isn’t representative of the political reality of Ireland. I hate to say it, but some random lad in the US can’t really get a great grasp of the situation in Ireland unless you live here.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120221271#Comment_120221271

I’m talking about the modern Irish state, after the civil war, our politics more or less normalised.

If you completely gloss over the Troubles and all the extremism and even international guerilla ops, yeah sure. Maybe. I feel like we're really watering down this allegation. As if Ireland had no liberals until William Jefferson Clinton came over on Air Force One. Before that, the whole ship was just saying right, we're all conservatives now..... definitely didn't have any leftist sentiment for the gulf wars, palestine, the war on terror, etc. none of that!

I've lived there, thanks.

Hungry Burger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120221287#Comment_120221287

I’m sorry but the Troubles didn’t even take place in this country so I have no idea what you were talking about.

Of course Ireland had liberals, I was one of them! I would of been considered a left wing person 25 years ago but now I would be labelled “Far Right” such the Overton window has shifted so dramatically to the left, which goes back to my original point.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120221307#Comment_120221307

Not a very useful point, then, back to what I originally said in remark to the lads on the radio.

bertieinexile

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120218536#Comment_120218536

The nearest pencilled in date for elections is May of next year.

When you consider how much the political rhetoric has changed on immigration in the last two months it would be foolish to predict where FF and FG will be on the issue a year from now.

The question right now is where does the political energy behind this protest movement go. What happens as a result of the voting public shifting its view on immigration.

There has been a capitulation in the rhetoric coming out of government. One consequence is that councillors and backbenchers who were being reined in a couple of months ago are much freer to pursue the populist vote now. Who's going to stop them.

It's natural that they will be reaching out to the local protest organisers. It is natural that the local groups would recognise the advantages these politicians bring in terms of political experience, organisation and pull.

That seems like an obvious channel for the energy we are seeing at the moment.

Bring on board the lower levels of the political parties and you could eventually be looking at ideological capture of the parties themselves.

That would be in the longer term. Short term - if we are waiting a year for an election - you may have no lack of respectable, capable, politically experienced, anti-immigration candidates to vote for. Party men. And not a NP or IFP neophyte among them.

--

I'd be interested in hearing people's take on this, especially those who aren't convinced.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120221062#Comment_120221062

The academic from UCC ( Pieras) is one of the most insufferably smug condescending fools on Twitter, constantly characterising protesters as having no agency and of being pawns of malevolent far right string pullers

he embodies the kind of ivory tower liberal progressive who is chronically out of touch with the majority of the electorate

DebDynamite

Can’t believe this is being used as some sort of gotcha! If we were to swap all 50,000* Irish illegals in America since the late 80s with all asylum seekers/ refugees who arrived to Ireland in the same period, there would be a hell of a lot going out than coming in. Nearly 85,000 asylum seekers/refugees came in to Ireland in 2022 alone FFS.

*This fact check article seems to suggest the real figure is actually only around 10,000 - 15,000

https://www.thejournal.ie/factcheck-undocumented-irish-usa-3559047-Aug2017/

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120221509#Comment_120221509

Valid.

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2023/01/03/record-number-of-people-sought-asylum-in-ireland-in-2022/

Bobtheman

Do we have an out of control situation with refugees - debatable.

We certainly have an issue reforming the system.

Should a distinction be made between Ukrainians and others - yes.

For **** sake where do you think Putin will go next after Ukraine??

Either you believe in democracy or you don't

Housing is our major issue. Even if we had zero refugees we would have a major issue.

Protesting outside tents or hotels is a joke. Protest outside the department of Justice.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120221443#Comment_120221443

I don't think immigration is a big enough issue in Ireland to get a TD elected. The anti-immigration guys / protesters are making desperate attempts to link the housing crisis, hospital waiting lists, crime levels etc to immigration but it doesn't seem to be gaining any traction. For example, Sinn Fein have set themselves up as the party who will (purportedly) solve the housing crisis, so that immediately pulls the rug from a lot of other current opposition parties on this issue.

You could certainly imagine the mainstream parties adopting a somewhat stricter viewpoint on what might be called "illegal" immigration but they will go nowhere far enough to give the protesters what they want.

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120222199#Comment_120222199

The protestors have had huge successes so far, not least making this a national issue and a national issue of conversation.

Changes in government policy on refugees in terms of Garda spot checks and accelerating deportations. Something which a few months ago was deemed as racist.

The protestors have also ensured that buildings in council areas won't now be used for refugees given the potential for social unrest.

The government is going to be forced to house people in the middle of no where.

The power of protest.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120222221#Comment_120222221

I would actually agree on most of your points and the protest guys have been very clever in their use of social media to promote their viewpoints.

But there is also a danger of hugely overestimating what is actually going on. People are probably spending far more time discussing the protests around the country and who or what is behind them, rather than the actual issue of refugees arriving. There does seem to be an element of it (refugee issue) being something of a 'manufactured' crisis, rather than one that has the entire nation gripped and talking about it non stop.

The same goes for the refugees in dinghies issue in the UK.

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120222260#Comment_120222260

It's in the early stages of this crisis. I think you're forgetting that.

We're expected to take another 70,000 people this year.

If the government doesn't take a harder line on refugees, which is want the public want, we could see a drift to anti refugee independents and parties. But that's not to say they will garner mass appeal.

I think it's fairly clear that TDs who have taken a public pro refugee stance and called their own voters racist are almost certainly going to lose their seats.

I'd be shocked if Paul Murphy wins again. He was on dodgy ground anyway. Others like Gary Gannon are also in danger.