Time for a zero refugee policy? - *Read OP for mod warnings - updated 11/5/24*

lmimmfn

With MNC tax take down, government will have to pay for these freeloaders via tax take, so expect tax increases next year for this and to help enrich mates of governments hosting refugees and NGOs will need to maintain their tax money intake.

grumpyperson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121377842#Comment_121377842

I'll believe it when I see it. Tell me where you're going on your next night out and I'll be there with a big paper bag to see how you get on.

_Kaiser_

Time for another reality check..

- We are not under any legal obligation to take in these people. The only "obligation" is between politicians here and in Europe and their NGO lobbyist hangers on and landlords here making coin on the decisions.

- We are under no obligation to give them a package of freebies that has made this country internationally known as a haven for anyone with a sad story. We can change that overnight if we wanted.

- We certainly should not be facilitating Christmas holidays for people supposedly fleeing from a warzone because they were in fear of their lives. The truth here is that those calling for this are economic migrants and welfare tourists, not genuine refugees and they should be refused admission if they try to return after their jollies. Again, nothing preventing us doing that either.

- We've no obligation to listen to complaints and lobbying from any of these people for more stuff or nicer conditions. They are allegedly here seeking refuge, not a better life. If they don't like what they find then they can head right back home, or anywhere else that'll take them.

- Irish communities and towns have no obligation to meekly accept dozens or hundreds of new arrivals being dumped on their doorsteps overnight with no consultation or plan afterwards. Politicians serve US, not the other way around and it's good that some are starting to be vocally and firmly reminded of that in these towns.

- We have no obligation to accept a situation where verified chancers (people arriving from safe countries, people destroying their documents to prevent authorities identifying them, people hiding in containers from France etc) are being given supports at the expense - financially and socially - of Irish people who DO have an entitlement to those supports. Someone mentioned that it costs a fortune to deport such persons with hoops to jump through, and that it's not as simple as sending the Gardai round... Why not? It's as complicated as we allow it to be. If we want to physically enforce deportation orders in much the same way as the sherrif enforces eviction orders then that's entirely our right and choice.

- We have no obligation to accept responsibility or liability for the problems of any other country. We can feel sympathy and empathy but anything else is entirely voluntary and should only be offered in proportion to our sustainable means and only AFTER our own needs have been met. Put very frankly, I don't really care about problems in Israel, Palestine, Africa, Ukraine or wherever else.. Bad things happen unfortunately and it's up to their politicians, military and citizens to resolve them, not a small island nation on the edge of Europe with massive domestic problems of its own and a population less than most major cities. We can't save everyone and we have no obligation to try beyond the ideology and inferiority complexes of a handful of dangerously underqualified politicians.

I'm sick of it. I'm sick of reading article after article (mainly in mainstream "legitimate" outlets) about how our generosity is being abused, how our people are being ignored by decisions to dump more and more new arrivals into our communities, how care homes are being closed to accommodate them, how people aren't getting medical operations, access to essential services, housing or other supports that they have FAR MORE entitlement to than any randomer just off a plane/boat, how the social and security problems that it's causing are being swept under the carpet... Etc, etc, etc..

I didn't vote for this. I don't support it and I don't want it destroying our country like it has our nearest neighbour and others on the continent. I'm far more interested and concerned about how our "leaders" intend to solve OUR problems and needs - many of which have been made manifestly worse by the current crop of TDs and civil servants in the last decade, but many of which go back a lot longer than that!

I am all for helping others out AFTER we have taken care of our own problems and ONLY insofar as that help doesn't negatively affect or limit supports for those who ARE actually legally, morally and constitutionally entitled to them.

I don't give a toss about anyone who screams racism, xenophobia or other ridiculous nonsense in the face of these uncomfortable (for them) realities. Ireland is FAR from perfect, but deliberately and provocatively making the country WORSE by transplanting hundreds or thousands of random people, many of whom come from societies completely incompatible with our own or our laws and values... Well that hasn't worked out very well elsewhere has it, and I prefer not to repeat these same mistakes here.

My priority is to my family, my friends and community and the stability, security and future prosperity and prospects that this State IS constitutionally obliged to place before all others. I make no apologies for that and I will not change my position on that.

Enough is most definitely enough and any politician foolish enough to darken my door trying to tell me that the Emperor really IS wearing clothes will be given the same dose of reality. I would encourage anyone else who this post resonates with to do the same - legally, peacefully and calmly of course, but we can no longer just sit on the sidelines, wait for someone else to do it, and hope it'll go away or all work out in the end as is the normal response in Ireland.

We need to make our concerns known to the canvassers, our questions heard and actually answered, and our votes actually counting for a change and given to those who actually get the message. I firmly believe that this agenda is being run by senior ministers and the party whip system but (as we've seen) cautious objections and questions are starting to emerge from some of the party TDs in local press.

Those are the ones who deserve support - not the "name" that you've always voted for, or the self-serving one who got you a medical card or resurfaced the road - but the ones who are actually asking the questions and thinking of the bigger picture not just the parish pump.

No one else is going to do it. It has to start with the electorate and the ballot box.

Think people.. This is an issue with far more longer term impact and consequences than probably anything we've been asked in decades. We don't get much of a say in our increasingly divorced from reality political system, but it's important we take the opportunities we do get and use them wisely!

JPCN1

Brilliantly put and I can only agree and urge those who share these concerns to write to their TD’s.

Just got my property tax reminder which will pay for a Ukrainian couple’s Christmas Holidays…

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121378077#Comment_121378077

Expect tax increases if SF get in. Full Stop. :)

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121378348#Comment_121378348

I think the issue there that a potential voter has that feels the same way as you, is that there is no option amongst the main parties to vote for a different approach.

FFG and SF and SD and Greens and Labour are all singing from the same hymn sheet.

None of them are going to stop IPA arrivals, even though they could do if they wanted to.

There is a "safety in numbers" element to this from the political parties point of view.

Absolute Zero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121378300#Comment_121378300

oooh you're hard mate.

Marcos

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121378348#Comment_121378348

Another cogent, well put post. I agree that everyone on this thread needs to do more than just post on here - I'm guilty of this I know. We need to engage with canvassers and ask them the hard questions. Though I think canvassers know this and will be doing hit and run canvassing i.e. pushing leaflets through doors and running away. We need to let our representatives know where we stand. This is happening but it is like a snowball growing larger and larger. The next election is the important one, it's the local elections in May or June next year. People don't really see them as important and that allows candidates who wouldn't normally get within an asses roar of getting elected at national level get elected as councillors.

I know most people normally don't go out and vote in local elections but we need to for this one. For the local elections go out and vote, and encourage all your friends and family to do so as well. But vote only for independents and definitely not for any of FFG, Greens, SF, Labour, Soc Dems, PBP etc. Once they see their core vote go down then they will react. Of course, if you're happy with open borders and want to see more immigration well keep up the status quo.

Gussoe

What's your cut off point @BlueSkyDreams?

500k?, 1 million?

Have a think about that because you're going to need one. The Refugees aren't going to stop coming on their own. And you'll find that 'international community' or our "European partners" will gladly offload them onto us.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379480#Comment_121379480

I didnt argue for unlimited immigration.

I think it should be managed in line with the infrastructure we have within the country.

But whilst we are taking IPAs in, we should spread the load across the country.

Alot of the heavy complaints seem to come from small towns when IPAs get put in their own back yard, but I am not seeing complaints from those same people or huge protests at the Dail, if the IPAs are housed in Dublin or Cork.

Its as if rural ireland shouldnt play their part and it be left to the larger towns and cities to house all IPAs.

That part i dont agree with. It should be a shared responsibility across the country.

But I do think, at a holistic level, that the numbers need to be managed in line with our capacity for infrastructure.

rgossip30

What about the free travel how long does it last ?

Stephen_Maturin

https://m.sundayworld.com/crime/courts/judge-not-impressed-with-asylum-seeker-who-stole-from-oap-after-arriving-in-ireland/a1960752993.html

Imagine having the neck to be taken into a country that provides you shelter, and your first move, as a guest, is to rob one of their most vulnerable

rgossip30

A situation may arise where young working Irish cannot afford to have children only refugees and dolers who get all the benefits and accommodation gratis .

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379669#Comment_121379669

For the sake of "equality", you could also argue that already exists within a segment of our own population, and it's just as wrong and in need of change and reform in those circumstances too! It should not be the case that it "pays" better to do nothing rather than contribute positively to society and work.

HOWEVER, despite that, those people still have more of an entitlement to the supports than ANY randomer fresh off the plane/boat.

_Kaiser_

Also, when you think about it this is all actually very familiar....

It's not the first time we've had an unrepresentative ruling class who are taking orders from abroad enforce a policy of resettlement of new arrivals and discrimination against the natives who then lose out on their access to essential care and services as a result and end up struggling themselves.

It didn't end very well in that previous situation then either - for any of the "sides" involved.

Hmm... What was it again....?

getoutadodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379737#Comment_121379737

I made this very point to the Shinners when they last came canvassing. They shuffled off into the night muttering something. Ourselves alone..

m2_browning

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379776#Comment_121379776

I am sure Shinners won’t bring in hundreds of thousands of Gazans establishing little mini Gaza ghettoes just so they can “show solidarity with Palestine”

/s

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379823#Comment_121379823

They will bring in refugees and Asylum Seekers.

Patrick2010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379667#Comment_121379667

And the only punishment is a suspended sentence and a trip back to Citywest, no deportation.

Gussoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379897#Comment_121379897

Makes you wonder what one would have to do, to actually merit deportation?

Not only are our political class against the plain people of Ireland, but the judiciary as well. We are totally screwed.

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379551#Comment_121379551

It’s because some small towns have done more that their part. For some it would be the equivalent of half a million asylum seekers being dropped into Dublin City overnight with no supports beyond accommodation. If you are trying to imagine how some small towns feel imagine what it would be like if that was done to Dublin City.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121379897#Comment_121379897

The fact that he is an asylum seeker has pretty much screwed his chances of ever being granted asylum. Having a criminal conviction and a suspended prison sentence stamped on his file means his application will be turned down (deportation is quite a different matter, as has been discussed in the thread before).

Gussoe

I read someone's rebuttal to the Dromahair hotel story, a few pages back. Whereby a councilor or someone dismissed local concerns and said that if the hotel was full of tourists, it would essentially be the same thing. But this is missing some important differences.

For one, tourists in the hotel aren't going to the local GP and putting pressure on local HSE and Social Welfare supports. Additionally, tourists aren't spending the entirety of their day lounging around the hotel and village. Rather they will be out and about on tours all day and will essentially only sleep at the hotel at night.

But the main difference is that tourists are bringing their MONEY from their home countries, and spending that here. That feature is massively contributing to our economy, locally and nationally. Whereas the refugees are taking money from us AND at the same time depriving us of that money from tourists. We are taking a double hit.

m2_browning

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121380032#Comment_121380032

I never understood the restrictions on work for asylum seekers

especially now that a lot of businesses can’t find people due to record employment

zell12

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121380096#Comment_121380096

Working as soon as you land would then be a pull factor for the third world

m2_browning

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121380171#Comment_121380171

I think not working and being paid to sit on arse might be a bigger pull factor

Gussoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121380096#Comment_121380096

Well if there weren't such restrictions, we'd be advertising that landing here and making a claim for asylum would be ticket to a work permit. Which would destroy any current work permit bureaucracy. Besides, these sorts of restrictions occurred in times when jobless numbers were high. Today, while the job situation may be different, this is not a permanent state.

Marcos

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121377652#Comment_121377652

I wasn't aware of the history of Palestinian refugees until recently, so I looked up why Jordan didn't want them. After the mass expulsions by the Israelis in 1967, they were allowed into Jordan. In 1970 they attempted a coup to depose the King of Jordan, it's called Black September by Arab historians. Jordan threw them out and in 1970/71 the majority made their way to Lebanon which used to be a majority Christian country and Beirut was regarded as the Paris of the Middle East. Guess who were major players in the Lebanese civil war which started in 1975?

Egypt doesn't want them as they know they'll cause trouble and ally with the Muslim Brotherhood to cause a coup there. Take a look at photos of the Egyptian Gaza border, it's eye opening and looks more like something from the Iron Curtain except it's to keep people out, not in. In the 80's they made their way to Kuwait and repaid them by supporting Saddam Hussein invading in 1990. When the US and allies threw the Iraqis out in the first gulf war, the Kuwaitis got back into power in their own country and threw 400,000 Palestinians out in one week. And these are co religionists and share similar cultures!

Does anybody think that if we did take in Palestinians that they will change their spots and become good little "Irish" boys and girls? And all that is without the current problems of over capacity and everything else that taking in genuine, and not so genuine, refugees, IPAs applicants etc?

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121380521#Comment_121380521

Very informative post and thank you for that - I wasn't very aware of the history either, and I would support your conclusions based even on the context/precendents in your post.

The reality is that, contrary to the fantasy of first-world/Western multiculturalism ideals, there is far more of the World that DON'T think like us than do. 30/40 years ago we called them the "third world" with an air of superiority and disdain which was arrogance for sure, but now we've swung to overvaluing their beliefs and cultural norms at the expense of our own.

You cannot expect cultures who have such fundamental differences in their core values, laws and religious teachings to just mix harmoniously because as your examples show, what might seem as minor differences to us as outsiders can be as fundamental and destructive to them as to cause civil and religious wars between sects and factions.

Far from being appreciated for our generosity, we are more likely to be seen as weak fools by the more extreme of these groups and taken advantage of accordingly until more "significant" changes can be made over time. Again, you only need to look at that brief history above to see that, and many of these beliefs and divisions stretch back hundreds of years, nevermind mere decades.

We need to value and protect our own cultures, laws, beliefs and norms in exactly the same way that we are told we must appreciate those of others. Why should tolerance come not in the form of equality but as the subjugation of our values in favoir of respecting others? Is respect not a two-way street? Is the multicultural notion not that we are all equally valuable and should mix and learn from each other equally? Is that not the whole idea and supposed benefit of the concept itself?

Or is that just indeed fantasist nonsense that, as with most such ideals, tends to fare badly in the real world and realpolitik?

Marcos

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121380940#Comment_121380940

"You cannot expect cultures who have such fundamental differences in their core values, laws and religious teachings to just mix harmoniously because as your examples show, what might seem as minor differences to us as outsiders can be as fundamental and destructive to them as to cause civil and religious wars between sects and factions."

Well look at the ructions caused in Citywest etc by putting asylum seekers from different nationalities and cultures together! But don't worry it'll all turn out grand, sure didn't we emigrate ourselves? /S for those at the back of the room with difficulties in comprehension.

Anyway that's me out, I hope everyone has a good weekend.