Time for a zero refugee policy? - *Read OP for mod warnings - updated 11/5/24*

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121961748#Comment_121961748

The housing crisis itself is the problem. Very few economists or demographers think immigration has caused the housing crisis - we have built nowhere near enough private or social housing in the last ten to twenty years and the buyers and rental market is massively overpriced by international standards. Thinking the chief way to solve the housing crisis is to tackle immigration would be a bit bonkers : it would leave a hugely dysfunctional housing and accommodation market in place.

gerogerigegege

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121962105#Comment_121962105

I think it would be wise to allow only those with the skills we need into the country and to cut our generous welfare entitlements. If you believe this should continue and believe politicans are going to solve this crisis after all these years, then best of luck with that.

we are wrecking this little country for future generations and for those already here.

gerogerigegege

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121954207#Comment_121954207

Best of luck. I'm saving to leave. Not sure where yet, buty I'm not living in this failed hellhole dumping ground for the rest of my life.

gerogerigegege

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121951248#Comment_121951248

no comparison. try building the infrastructure for 8 million people now and see how that goes.

we are begging Irish workers to ome back and build. you couldnt make it up considering the numbers that are coming into this country. what use are these people to the economy?

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121961748#Comment_121961748

"....yet we see people constantly cheerleading for more people - and at the same time saying they don’t impact the housing problem!!"

There is nobody saying that, just some trying to paint other posters as " come all.. welcome "

Same thing as if I say you are "all racist for wanting restrictions "...its not exactly true .

There are people with different opinions but not necessarily disagreeing on every point .

It's just easier to write other people's opinions off if you can label them as extreme .

Gen.Zhukov

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121962105#Comment_121962105

One of the most prominent economists in the country, Dan O'Brien, seems to think it [immigration] cannot be, but part of the problem

Dan has a fairly decent CV so I'll go out on a limb here and say he's not stupid -

Dan O'Brien is Chief Economist of the Institute of International and European Affairs. He is also Adjunct Senior Research Fellow at University College Dublin’s Geary Institute and a regular media commentator on economic and public policy issues.

For three years from mid-2010 Dan was economics editor of the Irish Times, analysing and commenting on a wide range of Irish, European and global issues. Prior to that he spent a dozen years, based in London and Geneva, as senior economist and editor at the Economist Intelligence Unit, an arm of The Economist Newspaper Group. Dan has also worked for the European Commission and as a consultant for the United Nations and Forfas, an Irish government in-house think tank.

Dan was on a radio panel yesterday with the awful BO'C - There were 3 other panelists too (all on the uber lib side so nicely stacked)

Listen from 13:20 mins in

https://www.rte.ie/radio/radio1/clips/22378239/

BOC does like his 3:1 stacked panels (the little scamp) -

He asked this yesterday "…have people not been allowed to have an honest, realistic conversation about immigration?" -

Asks the guy that let Olivia Kelly (IT), Fergus Finlay (general lib muppet) and Hazel Chu (does/says what is best for Hazel Chu) have their pro immigration rants and then cuts to an ad break and doesn't let Cormac Lucey speak - back in Feb. Pig ignorant thing to do.

Cormac Lucey (Sunday Times) is one that says it as it is

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121962105#Comment_121962105

This is a type of whataboutery and the by now standard fall back when posters are finally obliged to admit there are problems with our rapid rise of incoming population.

To say that the problem is not to keep inflating the balloon but to blame xyz for not making more housing, more health care, more education, more roads, more social welfare.

We certainly need to address some of these issues but a very first step has to be to stem the tide of incoming foreign nationals that have no visas.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121962666#Comment_121962666

There is a real danger though of everything that's going wrong in the country gets blamed on immigration and it being identified solely as a negative and a "problem".

Even if net immigration had been zero for the last ten years, we would probably still have a huge housing crisis, hospital waiting lists, people sleeping on the streets, a dysfunctional housing and rental market etc. Immigration and immigrants almost become a convenient scapegoat for things that are going wrong and for government mismanagement of the country..

A rapidly growing population is putting major pressure on services, infrastructure and housing, but a country that was depopulating would have just as many problems (depopulation is often accompanied by very high unemployment and increased poverty rates).

tom23

And what’s the rapidly growing population from?

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121962647#Comment_121962647

Dan O'Brien ..yes well qualified but not always right . Remember him well backing himself into a corner in many discussions back in 2008 and 2009 .

He was very much on the side of the developers and against the average home owner / mortgage payer during the crash .

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121962760#Comment_121962760

There's a burst pipe in the attic of your house and yous are running around looking for saucepans to catch the water. Rather than turning off or restricting the water pressure at the mains.

It's as simple as that.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121963086#Comment_121963086

"the average home owner / mortgage payer"

The people who went and borrowed a heap of money because it was there?? Like the people who sold perfectly good houses to make a few bob, borrowed big and then had to be bailed out as they wouldn't pay their mortgages.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121963138#Comment_121963138

Ten years ago we had net immigration of zero (more people leaving than arriving), 15% unemployment, huge numbers of people in mortgage distress, homeless families being accommodated in hotels, social welfare rates reduced etc.

It's ultra simplistic to claim that immigration is driving whatever problems we have at the moment. Immigration or no immigration, there will always be issues around services, infrastructure, housing, health provision, inequality in society and so on.

tom23

Read this in the Irish times. where failed applicants are given grants to go home. They are also told that they can see below, quoted from irishtimes.com

’Participants are also told they are free to legally return to Ireland at a later date and make a fresh asylum application. In contrast, people who are deported are automatically banned from the EU and Ireland’

What the actual ****? You fail your application, get paid to self deport and then come back to make a fresh application.

I’m stunned.

bloopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121962647#Comment_121962647

Wait a minute.

Is that stat true - 250000 increase in 20223 alone?

mykrodot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121964247#Comment_121964247

includes 100K Ukrainians, all migrants who are living and working in jobs here , international language students, plus IPA applicants. Its a total number but its still a quarter of a million in ONE year.

bloopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121964373#Comment_121964373

It does seem exceptionally large.

Even without the Ukrainians, that is still an increase of 150,000. Was this level of increase even planned for.

Between census 2011-2016 the increase in population was 173,000. Between 2016-2022 it was 380,000.

Now we have a one year increase of 150,000 (250000 total).

Is it any wonder that housing and health has become a basket case.

Patrick2010

So Ukranians who moved to Ireland could avail of full board/social welfare/medical card etc while paying no tax when working remotely?

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/2024/04/02/tax-treatment-of-ukrainians-working-remotely-in-ireland-for-companies-at-home-set-to-change/#:~:text=Ukrainians%20fleeing%20war%20following%20Russia's,workers%20for%20non%2DIrish%20employers.

Ukrainians fleeing war following Russia’s invasion in February 2022 but working remotely here for their employers at home, along with their employers in Ukraine, have not been subject to the same tax laws as other remote workers for non-Irish employers.

However, this is set to change with Revenue notifying accountants and other tax professionals here of the changes from the beginning of next year.

“These concessional treatments will cease with effect from January 1st, 2025. From this date, the Irish-based employee and the Ukrainian employer will be required to comply with the Irish tax requirements arising from the exercise of the duties of the Ukrainian employment in Ireland,” Revenue stated.

Francie Barrett

https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2024/04/02/cost-of-state-owned-accommodation-for-asylum-seekers-put-at-5bn-between-now-and-2044/

The 5 billion accommodation cost is just for starters. With the way things are in Ireland, the real cost is going to be a multiple of that. Not for getting about all the other costs of providing health care, assistance payments, etc.

maisie45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121962105#Comment_121962105

can we please put this nonsense to bed once and for all.

Even if half of those lone men coming have families left behind that means granting them permission to stay means they could have a wife and multiple children and aged patents who will then be looking to come too.

If we grant one somalian permission to stay, allow the family to come and inevitably have to allocate them public housing then all the in laws and cousins will arrive too.

Can we inject some realism into the thread, we simply cannot cope with the numbers who have their sights set on this tiny island.

Gen.Zhukov

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121964373#Comment_121964373

Yep - I did some due dil before posting yesterday and that's where we're at - 245,789 to be precise, in just one year

We better crank up those cement mixers

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121963659#Comment_121963659

So round & round we go. Next posts your group will be reminding us of our international obligations, then others will respond saying we have problems with resources and services, then your groups next posts will be that this is all the fault of the government for not providing enough services, then next you'll be reminding us of our international obligations and so on and on..

Much simpler to just admit what is quite obvious to all, we need to put a brake on population growth from refugees and general immigration. The system needs a radical overhaul and it needs to be done now. If the EU is a problem, well then we grow some balls like Denmark and others.

Stephen_Maturin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121963659#Comment_121963659

Is a population increase of 250,000 in a single year something that is sustainable in your eyes?

Does such an increase have an effect in terms of pressure on services?

Even if our existing services had been right sized prior to this the government could not have foreseen this. Regardless our services were not right sized, so the problem is even worse now. Do you accept that?

tom23

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121964614#Comment_121964614

One of the headlines in the Indo is…

The Irish childcare struggle: How families face three-year waiting lists, full creches and a lack of ‘baby rooms’

And some folks here will tell us it's nothing to do with inward immigration. Nothing at all.

Francie Barrett

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121964626#Comment_121964626

International obligations trump those of ordinary Irish taxpayers. Always.

rgossip30

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121962647#Comment_121962647

The bit that got me asylum seekers are only a tiny number they cost 640 million in 2023.

https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2024/04/02/cost-of-state-owned-accommodation-for-asylum-seekers-put-at-5bn-between-now-and-2044/

Dan used the number of PPS numbers issued in 2022 includes Ukrainians and asylum seekers 236000. Some Ukrainians have returned .

The report below is to April 2023 and shows immigration 141k less Ukrainians and asylum seekers and takes into account those who left 64k , 29600 are Irish leaves 106600 non Irish .What is notable 39995 are for work permits 45798 was made up of education permits ,the remaining EU/UK .

https://emn.ie/publications/annual-report-on-migration-and-asylum-2022-ireland/#:~:text=Key%20figures%20for%202022%3A,increase%20from%20the%20previous%20year.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121964614#Comment_121964614

Nobody can deny that rapid population growth is putting immense pressure on housing, services and infrastructure. But a point that is getting missed is that an Ireland that had stagnant growth or depopulation would have just as many problems. We've had several really bad and low points in the last 30-40 years when immigration was zero and we were even depopulating. People have nearly edited out the disastrous period 2008-15 which had nothing to do with immigration or refugees or the size of the population : ditto with the Covid crisis.

Sweet.Science

A good recession will sort out this insanity

bloopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121964755#Comment_121964755

How does anyone think this level of population growth is even remotely sustainable.

Even at 6 to a house, 150000 still means 25000 houses are needed just for that year. Let alone the existing demand.

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121965218#Comment_121965218

It can be done but we would have to get away from the concept of houses. We could make US style trailer parks the norm. Tent cities will just have to be in the future also. We need to stop talking about house building as that is nothing more than a fantasy solution in Ireland, it's not going to happen.