Time for a zero refugee policy? - *Read OP for mod warnings - updated 11/5/24*

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120323912#Comment_120323912

Jaysus that's a big spend. Can you name the top 10? I presume the vast majority have a domestic spend only?

19500! 😲

Gamergurll

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120323953#Comment_120323953

Someone posted a link a few pages back from the African woman asking if everyone in Ireland is an NGO, she had a point 😂

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120323953#Comment_120323953

This includes about 4000 schools, a huge swathe of the disability services in Ireland, sporting organisations, arts groups, community centres, religious groups, trade unions, professional bodies etc

So yeah that 5.5 billion is mostly funding things like schools, sports halls, community centres, disability centres, arts centres, housing (through housing bodies)

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120323976#Comment_120323976

Yeah. Defund 4000 schools and all the Disability Services in the country 🤣

TomTomTim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120324349#Comment_120324349

So yeah that 5.5 billion is mostly funding things like schools, sports halls, community centres, disability centres, arts centres, housing (through housing bodies)

Show us your work. How is "most" of said funding going to the aforementioned? I'm genuinely curious how you've reached that conclusion. You must have some data that I'm unaware of that breaks said spending down. I actually can't see the article, so maybe it's in there already.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120323563#Comment_120323563

funnily enough, you do actually need young people to maintain a healthy economy, so if you dont maintain a healthy level of young workers, you end up with an aging population, and your healthy economy will become fcuked very quickly!

Bobblehats

I’m actually sick to my stomach on reading here. Bout of nausea came over what a basketcase of an island; a mere island those are just such inordinate numbers it is extraordinary.

You’d expect a government to crack down but then they’re behind most of it…

Luxembourgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120324349#Comment_120324349

Great, I was hoping someone would have a breakdown of figures.

Can you share please?

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120323211#Comment_120323211

People in this thread seem to be all over the place - describing most asylum seekers who come to Ireland as "economic migrants", when they are clearly fleeing bad or oppressive situations in their own country.

But any asylum seeker has the full potential to become a taxpayer and contributor to society. Germany literally took this approach in 2015 when it said that the 1m Syrian refugees were actually needed by the economy and their arrival was a good thing. People don't claim asylum in another country in order to live in a refugee centre for years - their prime motivation is to make a life for themselves and earn a living, not just 'exist'.

TomTomTim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120325652#Comment_120325652

when they are clearly fleeing bad or oppressive situations in their own country

The problem is your end, making judgments like this with no proof. Where do you get the "clearly" from exactly? You're complaining about generalizing, while doing the exact same thing yourself. Many on these threads have argued that the not so clear cases are harming the clear cases, hence why the process should be speed up; with those who haven't proven the need to flee their own countries being sent back. If you cared about the genuine cases you'd agree with this, but you won't, because you don't. You're choosing to view them all as one, when we know for that fact that not all cases are equal.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120325683#Comment_120325683

I've seen an estimate that around 70% of the Channel dinghy people heading to the UK are coming from countries with genuine proven refugee crises such as Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, Yemen etc.

All of this 'economic migrants' and 'chancers' stuff is disingenuous. The vast majority of people who claim asylum in Europe are actual refugees. It's a much smaller number of people who are not fleeing war or oppression or extreme poverty and trying to abuse the system.

thegame983

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120325786#Comment_120325786

There is no war in Calais.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120325786#Comment_120325786

They’re not getting a dinghy from Afghanistan.

Mac_Lad71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120325652#Comment_120325652

The 1.3 million Syrian and Middle East refugees that Germany took in 2015 was reflected in the surge of support for the far-right AFD that saw it gain representation in the Bundestag in 2017 elections.

Obviously not all Germans saw it as a good thing as you wildly claim.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37274201

The recent cost of living and Ukrainian refugee crisis has seen its support surge once again particularly in the former East Germany.

https://unherd.com/thepost/afd-support-surges-in-east-germany/

A rise in immigration usually means a rise in anti-immigrant sentiment reflected in the ballot box.

This has been replicated across mainland Europe.

It will be no different here. People will support an anti-immigration party as soon as a credible one is formed.

Patrick2010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120325282#Comment_120325282

I doubt every school is counted as a separate ngo

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120326138#Comment_120326138

Theres all this guff about 19500 NGOs. 4000 of this figure 19500 is schools.

Patrick2010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120326208#Comment_120326208

I’m not doubting you but you mind sharing a link to where you are getting your information that 4000 of 19500 ngos are schools?

clytemnestra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120325908#Comment_120325908

What struck me in relation to the descendants of the Gastarbeiter who arrived in the 1950s and 60s, was that the Greeks, Italians and (former) Yugoslavians did well and assimilated, but the Turks fared much worse. Not all of course, but there were huge cultural and religious issues that made it difficult for them to integrate into German society. They tended to come from the poorest, most rural and religious parts of the country so even in their home country they would have been considered backward and conservative, they maintained very strong ties to their home country and encouraged chain migration, marrying their children off to people from home and bringing them over. This perpetuated the sense of isolation in a parallel society. It's a pattern that's repeated over and over again throughout Europe, where the cultures with the least in common with the host culture integrate the least. It's another reason the pro-bringing everyone to Ireland crowd are so naïve.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120326220#Comment_120326220

Here. It clearly says 3965 are schools.

https://benefactslegacy.ie/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/benefacts-nonprofit-sector-analysis-2021.pdf

TomTomTim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120326362#Comment_120326362

It's a pattern that's repeated over and over again throughout Europe, where the cultures with the least in common with the host culture integrate the least

Yeah, it sounds quite similar to the problems that the Dutch have with the Moroccans that they took in years ago. Even if the 1st generation somehow works out, most of the progress seems to be lost on the 2nd generation.

clytemnestra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120326432#Comment_120326432

And the French and the North Africans, the British with the Pakistanis/Bangladeshis. I mean, Germany didn't even have the imperial baggage that's usually blamed for this incompatibility. Nor does Ireland or Sweden, but the same patterns emerge. It's just that some cultures don't live easily or happily together because they're too different. It's an unpalatable truth.

ilovesmybrick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120326377#Comment_120326377

Yeah, not weighing in on either side of this debate, but that document doesn't say what you think it does. That is for Non Profit organisations, not Non Governmental Organisations. While there can be overlap, this is not always the case. You just need to look to the first page of the document, where its discussing 34,331 organisations, so unless 15,000 collapsed in a year you are actually looking at a mix of non profits and ngos. So drawing a direct relation from the 3965 schools in this document to the 19,500 NGOs others are talking about doesn't work.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120326377#Comment_120326377

Odd that you talk about the number of schools when in reality it's a relatively small percentage of what makes up non profit organisations.

Here's a snippet from the pdf you kind of linked to...

Here's a breakdown of how these organisations line up in terms of organisation type.

Where this becomes of note in this type of discussion is "advocacy, law, politics"...

Where there's several hundred organisations (448) fitting into this bracket.

Viewed against the backdrop of the rest of the organisations in the graph it seem insignificant but having 448 advocacy/political NGO type organisations in a country the size of Ireland is a little odd to say the least.

On the whole it seems like there's a bit of a gold rush for government funding for all sorts of organisations.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120326536#Comment_120326536

Exactly so this nonsense about 19,500 NGOs lobbying the state is pure guff

Mullaghteelin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120325786#Comment_120325786

It cannot be over-emphasised, they risk their lives crossing the channel from a place of safety. They are not fleeing from war or oppression in France.

Whether they should have safe and legal means to seek asylum in the UK is a matter for the Brits, but they are not being forced to leave France. They have already made it into the EU. Loitering around the French coast is a choice they have chosen of their own free will.

It is disingenious to equate these people with those trapped in a war zone, fleeing from real and present danger, desperate for refuge.

I know that sounds harsh, but we have to cop on to that reality.

FWIW, figures from 2023 so far have seen Indians shoot up to third place for channel crossings.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120326665#Comment_120326665

But the reality isn't really great either.

Several hundred organisations in the bracket of advocacy/political/legal, we can make the assumption that these organisations are on the left of the political spectrum as the far right in Ireland isn't claiming charity status mainly because they're such a tiny cohort.

Gino Kenny is a good representation of these organisations, and he's completely off his rocker and an elected member of Dail Eireann.

There's a lot of organisations out there in this sector, more than enough to leech public money and campaign for thoroughly ridiculous reasons.

It might not be the number mentioned previously but its not a small number either, certainly enough to be cause for concern.

72sheep

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120326518#Comment_120326518

We're a fairly light shade of green ourselves! At least that explains everything you need to know about how we ended up as "modern Ireland".

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120326470#Comment_120326470

The data from the 2017 and 2021 came from the same organisation.

You're absolutely correct. The point is theres all this guff about 5 billion going to 19500 NGOs. Its all drivel.

https://benefactslegacy.ie/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/benefacts-nonprofit-sector-analysis-2017.pdf

People talking about 19500 NGOs are talking nonsense.

The 19500 does include schools plus all the other things like disability centres, community centres, sports centres etc.

ilovesmybrick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120327016#Comment_120327016

Jesus talk about misrepresenting what I said. I wasn't agreeing with your interpretation. Also if you had the correct, older, document, with the actual related figures, why would you use a more recent one where the figures have no comparative ability in the context? And that 2017 document there is no figure for schools, so you took two reports, with different figures, separated by 5 years. Same organisation or not, you cannot compare figures in the way you're doing here.

Gen.Zhukov

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120325786#Comment_120325786

I've seen an estimate that around 70% of the Channel dinghy people heading to the UK are coming from countries with genuine proven refugee crises such as Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, Yemen etc.

You didn't get that the wrong way around by any chance did ya?

Ten of Swords

@Dyr do not post in this thread again

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120327681#Comment_120327681

That doesn't contradict the percentages I gave. 12k small boat arrivals from Albania and around 25k people from Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Eritrea and Sudan (English right wing press and their readers claim that the latter 25k are all "illegal" migrants, despite those countries being known war zones or refugee hotspots):

BoxcarWilliam99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120325652#Comment_120325652

Can you prove or tell us about these oppressive situations that all of these people are "clearly" running from?

Start with the Albanians and let's do a country by country

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120327968#Comment_120327968

Many people fleeing those countries are often oppressed minorities i.e. the wrong religion or the wrong ethnic group or the wrong language or discriminated against for a whole host of different reasons.

I saw someone scoffing here recently at the idea that a person could flee Nigeria as a refugee - despite the fact that it has 370 different ethnic groups or tribes and 500 different languages or dialects. Some parts of the country safe, other parts very dangerous.

US3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120327930#Comment_120327930

There is ZERO people arriving on a boat from Afghanistan, they are arriving on a boat from France which is a very safe country. If these people are genuinely fleeing persecution why are they passing through several safe countries to get to UK + Ireland?

$$$$ is the only answer

Luxembourgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120327930#Comment_120327930

No they arrive from France

rgossip30

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120324588#Comment_120324588

Indeed Nigeria is a good example .

The low birthrate for German citizens and the shortfall is made up with immigration .

In contrast the population of Ireland was 3.7 million in 1996 now it's 5.1 million. In

Backstreet Moyes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120326665#Comment_120326665

So you defend NGOs, are vocal about protecting irish minorities an NGO point of view and are vocal about the rights of illegal immigrants another NGO point of view.

The defence of NGOs paints a clear picture of your motivation in these threads.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120328882#Comment_120328882

I defend human rights.

Backstreet Moyes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120329192#Comment_120329192

So why do you support people from countries where women have no rights?

Do you pick and choose which people are deserving of your support?

TomTomTim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120329223#Comment_120329223

Do you pick and choose which people are deserving of your support?

That's the thing. If they were an honest defender of all human rights I wouldn't mind statements like that, but all they defend is the ones that suit them politically. That's all well and good, as we don't all agree with all rights, but don't dare tell us you're a defenders of them as a whole in the name of appearing righteous, when we know that that's not the case.

enricoh

Watched prime time last night , they were on about the eviction ban. The reporter went to a viewing for a house rental in tallaght. Queues out to the road for it, people living in their cars, mother n her kids on friends sofa, a separated father can't have his kid over as he lives in a van. Many working full time.

Every no limits to refugees politician n media head should be brought down to one of these viewings to see what happens when a country is full.

Patrick2010

You must not have read the memo, housing for asylum seekers has no connection at all with the provision of housing for locals.

72sheep

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120328882#Comment_120328882

This is Modern Ireland - pouring resources into "protecting" the 0.00001% of Irish citizens and enabling unchecked migration - on the pretense that we're harbouring the 0.0001% vulnerable minorities from other safe countries!! Meanwhile anyone here who notices the 99.999% issues (housing, health) is branded right wing or worse. NGOs are needed as the IT is already overwhelmed with explaining to us how ignorant/racist/... we are. The NGOs employ media studies students to generate "research reports" that explain to us why this top-down international approach is more effective than democracy.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120329192#Comment_120329192

You defend the rights of humans you agree with.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120329310#Comment_120329310

All those people queueing to view that house need to check their privilege I'm assuming.

Backstreet Moyes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120331206#Comment_120331206

They need to be careful if they complain about the situation they join the far right club.

Just imagine how much worse it's going to get as this madness continues.

The kids who should be the future of this country will have the choice to live at home into there 30 and 40s or emigrate to countries who will benefit from the Irish education system.

cal naughton

An astonishing headline,and yet we have some posters here saying the homeless crisis and influx of ip applicants are not linked.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/politics/arid-41088361.html

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120331741#Comment_120331741

I suspect something has got lost in translation here. Both Focus Ireland and the McVerry Trust say that not a single Irish homeless person has been displaced from emergency accommodation by a refugee or asylum seeker in the last year. When Varadkar refers to "emergency accommodation", he must be speaking about the state's use of hotels or whatever. Refugees are not housed in official places designated for the Irish homeless.

mcsean2163

It's a sad dilemma. Our neighbour, non-national and here for over 6 years, went through an absolute nightmare trying to find accommodation. It seems to me as much as we would like, it's not possible to help everyone.

The government may need to make hard decisions whether to help it's citizens, (Irish, non national, etc.) or those seeking asylum/ refuge. Not great options but a government policy that means working people living in their cars seems problematic.