Time for a zero refugee policy? - *Read OP for mod warnings - updated 11/5/24*

tobefrank321

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122089503#Comment_122089503

You can't just flick a switch and increase supply rapidly. It takes years if not decades to significantly increase supply in this country. The planning is a farce and there's a shortage of skilled tradespersons, an area we should actually encourage immigration in, rather than unskilled workers.

boetstark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122089929#Comment_122089929

Would you care to point what I said us untrue.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122089964#Comment_122089964

i agree, and i believe that they should have started around 14 years ago, but if they dont start now, it will take longer again.

boetstark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122089820#Comment_122089820

Will you please stop posting utter and absolute crap.

No they are not deported. Is that you Roderic , do you have a problem understanding English.

MMods Please have a word cos this guy is deliberately winding people up.

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122089786#Comment_122089786

We're back to this again…

The reality is that many of the people arriving here claiming asylum, are in fact economic migrants who are trying to circumvent the processes we do have for processing the latter. Why is this? Likely because they already know that they wouldn't qualify under those rules.

It's made even more outrageous and obvious when it emerges that they are "fleeing" countries like France, Germany or the UK.

You and others can keep leaning on decades old agreements made in the aftermath of WW2 or keep talking about our "obligations", but laws and agreements can - and are - changed rapidly when the situation demands (look at how quickly McEntee moved this week to try and enable legislation to return asylum seekers to the UK) and this is no different.

Unfortunately because of the actions of these chancers (because that's what misrepresenting your actual status/claim is - chancing your arm), our ability and capacity (and indeed public willingness) to accept genuine asylum seekers has been seriously diminished in the process. Those are the real victims - not economic migrants skipping through Europe in search of the best deal.

Regardless, the majority of Irish people have had enough as many recent polls and indeed increasing numbers of protests indicate. That ultimately is what matters. As natives and citizens of this country we absolutely have a right to expect our concerns to be heard, be acted upon by the politicians we elect to represent us, and to have those same interests placed above all others. That's a fundamental part of the social contract in a modern democracy.

If that means changing laws - or even just exercising options/opt-outs we already have available to is - then that's what needs to be done.

Once we fix our own problems and take care of our own needs, then maybe we can worry about others - it's that simple and it's because we no longer have the ability to do both thanks to this mess.

murpho999

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122089939#Comment_122089939

Housing is worse I agree but when I was growing up Health service was a mess, has been for decades.

Cost of living and traffic getting worse is actually a problem that comes with a successful economy as people get wealthier and population increases then prices go up and they have more cars and more people are going to work.

Problem is we didn't plan or build infrastructure to match the increased population and economic activity and that's not the fault of immigrants.

However, there's no doubt the country is better now than 30 to 40 years ago in terms of economics, socially and politically ( don't forget impact of troubles in Northern Ireland) then it has ever been and that's just not up for debate.

Ireland was a backward theocracy 40 years ago where t he church ruled and abused children. Those days are gone.

tobefrank321

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122089962#Comment_122089962

Australia is actively seeking and has done for years skilled irish teachers, nurses, doctors and police officers. This is planned and sustainable migration where people are invited in, paid significant salaries, pay taxes, and are able to pay their way largely without reliance on the state.

Completely different to hundreds of people turning up and camping outside an IPO office in Sydney.

There's no comparison.

Not sure if you watch those reality TV Australian border control programs. When someone shows up from a safe country without proper documents, they send them home on the next plane, without letting them leave the airport.

murpho999

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122089989#Comment_122089989

Oh sorry, you just don't like facts and just believe nonsense.

I' not on any wind up so no need for your back seat modding,

star61

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122089575#Comment_122089575

Your right and that's why Australia will begin enforcing tougher visa rules for foreign students this year as official data showed migration hit another record high, which is likely to further exacerbate an already tight housing market.

This will stop/slow down Irish students from leaving Ireland for a couple of years to gain experience in their fields of expertise. They will all ( highly educated students ) have to stay in Ireland, which suits me, as I am all for keeping my children here.

minimary

Podcast ep about the Zimbabwean murderer who used a fake South African passport to claim asylum here and then claimed to be from Mozambique. The trial has started in Zimbabwe and is making big news. Wonder how many more people we'll get using the fake South African passport trick now

https://open.spotify.com/episode/0CGiuSSiJggc0l93LMFbbz

brickster69

Warnings given 2 years ago.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/officials-warned-mcentee-two-years-ago-that-uks-rwanda-policy-would-impact-ireland-1620767.html

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122089786#Comment_122089786

I had a look through those and some further stats here. It's incredible stuff.

https://www.refugeecouncil.org.au/statistics/

The current estimated cost of Australia's offshore policy is circa 12 billion AUD (I think there are still compensation cases pending).

In total they only ever held 4.2k people on these centers.

That's 2.8 million per person!

Approx 2k have now been returned to Australia.

Slightly less than 1k were successfully deported, or returned 'voluntarily' to origin countries.

Approx 1k were resettled in other countries. This doesn't seem to be included in the above costs. In one case they paid $40million to resettle 7 people to Cambodia!

This approach was the basis of the UK Rwanda policy. The UK are estimating their long term cost at approx 200k per person. I think that's very optimistic, especially looking at these costs and what they've had to pay for the initial cohort.

It's also worth nothing that this approach didn't seem to have any deterrent effect. More boats arrived after it was introduced and was effectively replaced some months later by a push-back approach. The push-back approach does seem to have been effective to some degree, but it's a very different set of circumstances than coast guards face in the Med or English channel.

murpho999

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122089997#Comment_122089997

Sorry but would care to back up your claims of how many economic migrants are coming?

Also, we can't just back out of international treaties as you claim. Items like the Geneva Convention may be decades old but they're still relevant in international law.

Finally the numbers coming to Ireland, 13k a year is really not that big and the amount of scaremongering and ranting on platforms by people about it is over the top and is not representative of how the majority of the population feel about it

willyvanilla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122089964#Comment_122089964

I'll counter that and say we shouldn't import more people, regardless.

Rather we should have a 5 year plan to increase necessary skills. If you want trades people, then incentivise the creation of it, not the importation of it.

Throw the necessary money at it to make it extremely attractive. Just like nursing, just like doctors, just like policing. Make it happen.

This reliance on imported population is just lazy and stupid, as it means that more resource is taken up and ultimately improves nothing.

The proof is in the pudding and we're eating it right now. These lazy, backward policies have not worked, do not work, and will continue to not work.

Infrastructure-dictated migration will solve infrastructure over relatively short time, it will incentivise internal solutions, it will increase retention and will overall bring us screaming into sustainability ,functioning economy and societal improvement for all.

Shorthand, we dont need more external people, we need better internal organisation.

Tenzor07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122090047#Comment_122090047

"13k a year is really not that big"

Do you reckon this unplanned and continuously rising sudden/new population increase above/in addition to the natural birth rate/population of the country allows communities to increase the numbers of Doctors, Nurses, Dentists, Teachers/school places and housing and welfare to cater for the new arrivals in such a short period of time?

dmakc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122090027#Comment_122090027

It's amazing the amount of info she left unactioned. She must have literally sat at her desk clicking the pen all day

tobefrank321

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122090038#Comment_122090038

The UK probably reason that while it costs 200k per person, ultimately it will dissuade many more people coming to the UK, or else going to Ireland instead and claiming asylum. So far that reasoning seems to work.

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122090047#Comment_122090047

Any migrant arriving here from a safe country, or who travelled through several of them to get here at all, is not an asylum seeker. They are an economic migrant looking for the best deal. A true asylum seeker or refugee is looking for somewhere safe from the actual life-threatening danger they are escaping. That doesn't include skipping through half of Europe or Africa in the process.

We can absolutely renegotiate or remove ourselves from previous agreements if the political will and mandate is there. Brexit would be a more recent example, and while the merits of that decision are debatable, the decision was made and the UK is now outside of the EU as was voted for. These agreements are not suicide pacts or written in stone, inviolable until the end of time.

You can keep downplaying the impact if you wish but if we have people sleeping on tents on the streets it's too many! As for the feelings of the majority - I'm sure you're well aware of the many polls over the last few months where an ever increasing majority are expressing not just concern, but dissatisfaction over this current approach.

dmakc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122090047#Comment_122090047

13k a year (likely to be >20k this year) is a huge amount, you're just being disingenuous by comparing it to France and Germany to make it seem smaller.

It's so big that the government have put out a tender to buy up private properties around the country.

willyvanilla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122090094#Comment_122090094

Basically it comes down to this: a bunch of people arguing that nothing can be done based on existing legislation, which is suspicious enough given the widely known profits involved, versus those saying that existing legislation needs to be changed ASAP.

Its fruitless to argue with these sorts of people, no matter what is said, no matter what is proposed, no matter what slice of reality is shoved in tgeir face, all theyll do is reply "sorry cant be done".

Just leave them to it, you'd getter a better debate out of a brick wall, and at least you'd be sure the brick wall is honest in its motivations!

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122090077#Comment_122090077

13,000 asylum seekers isnt really that much when you consider the other immigration figures, 2023 saw 29,600 returning Irish citizens, 26,100 were other EU citizens, and 4,800 were UK citizens

Tenzor07

You can see the sort of Civil unrest the migrant situation is causing in the UK, this is a video of the far-left battling Police trying to move migrants to Dorset from London.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/may/02/london-protesters-block-coach-peckham-asylum-seekers-bibby-stockholm

Tenzor07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122090113#Comment_122090113

How many of the returning Irish/EU/UK citizens came here without passports or other relevant documentation that clearly identified them?

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122090085#Comment_122090085

If they do get it started it might push people to Ireland and other European countries. But so far we only have anecdotal evidence. There's been several posts here from newspapers with interviews where people are saying they are deterred. I've seen similar interviews where people say they're going to the UK regardless, one guy even said if deported he'd simply make his way back to the UK and try again.

I find that 200k future projected cost very optimistic. If it starts to look successful Rwanda have the Tories over a barrel and I'm sure will renegotiate accordingly. It's a business enterprise for them.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122090047#Comment_122090047

Is it 10k, 13k, 20k, 25k, 50k or more annually?

Personally I'd view a figure of about 1k genuine asylum applicants a year as about a decent figure. Send the rest away and/or better stop them at point of entry.

dmakc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122090113#Comment_122090113

Actually yes, it is really that much.

Ten of Swords

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122089024#Comment_122089024

Mod warning in post #1 - No Anecdotes

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122090111#Comment_122090111

Twice today, I've made a reply to one of them and then deleted before posting. Waste of time engaging with those of bad faith.

willyvanilla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122090134#Comment_122090134

And let's not forget what the word "citizen" entails.

Its very easy to imagine that its irish people returning from a working holiday and such. But that isn't what that vague word "citizen" entails.

Even the likes of the esri have admitted they don't know who's who and that it's a detrimental thing for planning. And if they're saying it's a problem, well, I wouldn't be tripping over myself to point out badly defined information.

For example, and I could be as easily wrong as right, the likes of family reunification. Do they actually qualify as "returning" at all, or is it simply an addition masked over?

Again, the information really needs to get a lot more granular rather than taking it at assumed face value. As the ESRI have said.

Will0483

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122089893#Comment_122089893

This post is almost too nonsensical to even respond to but I'll give it a try.

I'm as well versed on history as anyone alive so spare me this spurious line of argument.

You're attempting to say just because there were major wars in Europe in the past, that importing loads of 3rd world people unsuited to life in Europe and with nothing to offer our ever more complex labour market is fine.

Go further back in History and you will note how many wars were fought against Arab invaders by Greece, Spain and Italy. This is more analogous to our current situation though this invasion is being done under the guise of fake asylum seekers weaponising weak and naive laws against us.