Time for a zero refugee policy? - *Read OP for mod warnings - updated 11/5/24*

JohnnyFortune

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120357126#Comment_120357126

There are conditions already attached to being an EU citizen moving around European countries for more than 3 months. We could repatriate thousands if we applied the rules properly.

EU Directive 2004/38/EU:

1.  All Union citizens shall have the right of residence on the territory of another Member State for a period of longer than three months if they:

(a) are workers or self-employed persons in the host Member State;

(b) or have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State during their period of residence and have comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the host Member State;

(c) or are enrolled at a private or public establishment, accredited or financed by the host Member State on the basis of its legislation or administrative practice, for the principal purpose of following a course of study, including vocational training;

and have comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the host Member State and assure the relevant national authority, by means of a declaration or by such equivalent means as they may choose, that they have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State during their period of residence;

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120351492#Comment_120351492

Twice as many people in Japan are dying than are being born and it's now heading into a big pensions crisis.

The idea that people in Ireland, of all countries, are complaining that the country is "full" and "overpopulated" after our devastating history of famine and mass emigration is really off the wall.

Potatoeman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120357876#Comment_120357876

Our history? Didn’t you say you are from the Balkans?

Patrick2010

This idea that we can accommodate another couple of million in Ireland because we had that kind of population pre famine times is ludicrous unless we're happy to give up a few hundred years of progress in our living conditions.

Increasing our population by taking in large numbers of the third world with little education and little English won't help any pension deficit.

Likelihood is they will be a drain on the system rather a help. No issue with taking in skilled immigrants who can fill skill gaps and contribute to Irish society

supermans ghost

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120357876#Comment_120357876

In case you hadn’t noticed there are over 8 billion people on planet earth and counting. You are singing from the same hymn sheet as that tosser CEO of the Irish Refugee Council who during a radio interview said he could see no reason why Ireland could not have a population of 8 to 10 million. You want to know the real cause of Global warning, YOU and every other human on this rock, using up the resources at a phenomenal rate, all wanting to live to 100+ , it’s only a matter of another 100 to 200 years before the Earth becomes a fireball and you are worried about a pensions crisis.

To quote comedian Bill Burr in his brilliant summary of the population control problem “85% of You Have to Go”

NattyO

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120357876#Comment_120357876

What has population decline in Japan got to do with Ireland though?

Ireland's population is growing. The myth that we need to have a continuous flow of migrants to "pay our pensions" is just that - a myth. The idea that refugees, the majority of whom don't work, will somehow solve a looming pension crisis is one of the most off the wall reasons I've seen for open borders.

batman_oh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120357876#Comment_120357876

And this constant famine population nonsense is one of the most braindead arguments ever. 8+ million people living in squalor that died because a potato crop failed. Sounds like something to aspire to.

In the real world yet another report that they will only get 20 odd thousand houses built this year, about half what they need. And no sign of this improving. Health service in a shambles. Public transport not fit for purpose across the country. But yep, lets let every single person from everywhere in the world that doesn't like where they live come here. We can fit 70 or 80 million in the space we have. It's literally only about space, nothing else.

Maybe we can get a sweet tent city set up that will take a few million. We can put it in Cavan and watch the pension money roll

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120358644#Comment_120358644

All of the issues in your middle paragraph are caused by poor government policies and planning : housing, health service and transport etc nothing to do with immigration. It is literally the job of any government to prepare and plan for a growing population, whether it is growing for natural reasons or through immigration. Analysts and demographers think it is unlikely the Irish population would ever go much above 6m (which might happen by the year 2050 or so).

tinsofpeas

Looking at the state of the country and the reasoned trajectory of the country, this kind of thing needs to be put to a referendum, or at least something similar that will either enforce or otherwise dictate policy.

No harm in letting a group of people decide what's good for them.

Rather than undemocratically forcing a certain action upon a group of people and arguing after the fact when there was never a choice to begin with.

New policies to reflect a rapidly changing world sounds perfectly fine to me.

Let's hear it out at an actionable level, let people decide what their leaders do and don't, and not the other way round. Wild, I know.

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120357876#Comment_120357876

No; what's legitimately "off the wall" (I can use quotes too!) is advocating for open borders and implying that Ireland has unlimited capacity to absorb asylum seekers and/or refugees. That's the truly insane ideology being propagated around here.

Everybody is aware that the advanced economies in East Asia currently have extraordinarily low fertility rates. This isn't some insider knowledge that only an inner circle is privy to. By contrast, Ireland's fertility rate reached a nadir of 1.64 in 2020 (depths of the pandemic), rebounded to 1.72 in 2021 and increased by another 16% in the first two QRs of 2022. At this point, the country is just below replacement-level fertility. The population grows naturally by ~30K annually. Our demographic trajectory is entirely different to East Asia.

I've explained all this before, but it's been conveniently ignored. With respect to East Asia, I have full confidence in their ability to make the structural changes required to encourage future family formation and to automate their way out of a looming pensions crisis.

Speaking of nonsensical arguments, the famine angle re-surfaces yet again. This is a time when the population of the entire island of Ireland was 8 million (the all-island population is 7M in 2023), but most of our unfortunate ancestors lived in, what would rightly be construed as squalor and immense deprivation by the standards of today. It's truly embarrassing stuff that this needs to be pointed out repeatedly.

high_tower

Dunphy finally covered immigration in his the stand pod - after a year of dodging it. Honestly it was awful - the protesters are all vile allegedly. Shocked at how poorly informed and out of touch the guy was.

tinsofpeas

The place is being robbed blind.

Apparently 120k immigrants last year, while 30k homes is a stretch to build. More expected this year, and every other year, why not? Ffs.

That, for me, is the beginning and end of this conversation. Racism, regulations, red tape, obligations, feelings...nothing but irrelevant noise.

You can have 2 million immigrants when there's 4 million homes built.

What people are doing here is arguing with a burglar that's walking in and out of their house, following them around trying to make this point and that point.

They're getting what they want already, defacto. What are you doing trying to have a conversation?

All focus should be put on getting a referendum asap and put it to the test. It will be easy to see who's robbing who when it comes to those who support democracy versus those filling their pockets while forcing a meaningless "conversation".

A referendum on women "in a household", yeah that's legitimately a burning question directly negatively impacting hundreds of thousands if not millions. Time for that alright.

If you want to sit through a housing crisis until you're 6 feet in the ground, keep arguing about bs put upto you by bs artists, playing into their hands. If you don't, chase after a referendum and call into local politicians and opposition and make your demands clear.

120k versus 30k? Let's get real.

No referendum, no vote.

Nosler

Tbh, on more or less every single issue you can think of refugees make ireland a less nice place to live.

Ie refugees make ireland poorer and more violent. They reduce the amount of houses available to Irish people. They put pressure on the health service. You also have to sacrifice green belt land to build houses for them. They also make the roads busier etc.

It's not like they really add anything to Ireland? You watch the telly and refugees are interviewed and they complain that the irish arent doing enough for them. You never see a refugee thank the Irish people for taking them in.

Ireland should be accepting some refugees from Ukraine and that's it...

high_tower

many don’t mix with the locals even down the generations - especially those from Muslim countries. . In England there are whole areas that are 3-4 generations in and are exclusively Pakistani etc , still marry their cousins, still import family from their old village. It’s like a parallel society and completely divisive. It’s these communities that foster the terrorists and also have recently developed major problems with organised crime.

enricoh

I truly hope Helen n Roderick stand firm against those sinister far right nutjobs - the eu! Amnesties for all from paddy instead thank you!

https://www.breakingnews.ie/world/eu-urges-members-to-deport-more-migrants-who-are-ineligible-to-stay-1447478.html

batman_oh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120360297#Comment_120360297

We have to stand up to this 1930s Germany style speak and take everybody - show the world how important we are!

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120360395#Comment_120360395

Gary Lineker must be so relieved that Brexit was enacted. The UK is no longer subject to this tyrannical ruling from that known far right entity - the EU.

maninasia

Can't tell if serious these days. Too many crazies out there.

irishproduce

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/majority-of-deportation-orders-not-carried-out-government-paper-reveals-1447810.html

I dont even need to comment on this from today's news. Extraordinary isn't it. At the end of it the DoJ representative ducked and dived for any area of ambiguity to make the issue go away, and he settled on "many of them left without telling the state". As I said, any bit of unprovable ambiguity will fit the bill to get em off the hook.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120364267#Comment_120364267

Look at the numbers though : 900 orders one year, 1400 the next. By all means carry out all the deportations, but this is hardly a burning issue or crisis for the country.

To put those numbers in perspective, 120,000 people moved to Ireland up to April 2022 and 60,000 emigrated. Also, the report makes clear that quite a few of these deportation orders have nothing to do with refugees or asylum seekers e.g. students overstaying their visas, marriages of convenience, people working in the black economy etc.

Mac_Lad71

120,000 mostly asylum seekers, refugees and economic migrants moved to Ireland through safe countries and the vast majority have nothing to offer and become a net drain on our scarce resources as the government moves heaven and earth to house them.

Meanwhile, 60,000 mostly highly educated young native people leave the country for better lives as they can't find a place to live in Ireland.

You couldn't make this **** up.

high_tower

So is anything getting done to prevent , assess and deport ? Is it a case of just keep finding hotels and tents for everyone , or are the gov looking to invest in sorting and processing this mess ?

I'm over in England and the gov are starting to go all in on this - early stages. The Tory’s know they are toast unless this gets sorted , and Rishi seems to be someone quietly getting things done.

The fear for Ireland is they all hop on a flight over there.

Also has anyone got any idea on the numbers coming over - ukranians and separately non ukranians ? Has it slowed from the madness in January ?

high_tower

No sympathy for the hotels that took them all in. I’ve read a lot weren’t getting paid and I hope they get bumped by the government. It’s shameful what they did.

Backstreet Moyes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120365296#Comment_120365296

Why would you blame hotels for taking advantage of government incompetence.

If your hotel was empty most of the year round and someone offered you a load of money then you would take it.

rgossip30

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120364533#Comment_120364533

I dont know where you get your figures !! In 2022 including Ukranian refugees 236,819 k foreign nationals applied for pps numbers 69,090 Irish!!

https://www.gov.ie/pdf/?file=https://assets.gov.ie/245165/95b065a2-2d15-4f38-ad9f-912c170362b2.pdf#page=null

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120365586#Comment_120365586

The figures are from April 2021 to April 2022 and relate to the movement of 'all' people in and out of the country (I think around 25,000 Ukrainians had arrived in Ireland by that point and are included in the figures.

My point is about deportations though. As we can see, the whole area of illegal or invalid immigration is not a particularly big issue in the context of overall immigration and emigration. By all means, deport those who have a deportation order issued against them, but we're talking about a couple of thousand of people a year at most (and many of these mightn't even be asylum seekers.....people who have overstayed their work or student visa, people working in the black economy without documentation and paying taxes etc).

As the report also mentions, people who have had their asylum claim rejected often just leave the country without needing to be deported and simply move on elsewhere.

high_tower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120365467#Comment_120365467

corporate responsibility is the big buzz word at the moment. allowing your hotel in a village of 200 to close to the tourists and host 50 asylum seekers is is not very responsible for the community.

Luxembourgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120365586#Comment_120365586

The numbers in that are astounding to be honest....

Especially non EU countries such as Brazil, India, Mexico etc..

No wonder we have a housing crisis. Less houses built than new PPS numbers for Brazilians and Indians alone 😮😮

Thelonious Monk

I think with the capitalist model and booming economy like Ireland currently has lots and lots of people are required to move here. You wont get Irish people working in meat factories these days. Even hotels all seem to be staffed with non Irish bar the really high end ones, from my experience. Same with the rest of the hospitality industry. It's just a symptom of the jobs jobs jobs money money money at all costs model that the country follows.

Nosler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120367332#Comment_120367332

Tbh, I think the issue is that irish business owners don't want to pay enough to attract Irish staff...

Mass immigration is largely about serving the needs of business....

It really is crazy when you think about it. Hotel owners employ non irish staff because they are cheap. The hotel owners then accommodate asylum seekers. The only input the Irish people have is paying tax to finance it all.

But yeah, diversity is really awesome.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120367510#Comment_120367510

but aren't businesses closing because overheads are so high these days? i dont think you're going to see minimum wage type jobs paying a lot more any time soon. if jobs were not abundant they'd be taken by irish people i'm sure.

and a more diverse population is here to stay even if we stopped all immigration now, no point in worrying about it.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120367510#Comment_120367510

I don't think pay is the only issue. Large numbers of Irish people are leaving the education system with degrees - they are clearly not going to want to work permanently in meat factories, on farms, in hospitality jobs, care homes, filling stations, on bin lorries etc. Even a person with a good Leaving Cert or PLC cert probably wouldn't want to do a lot of these jobs.

One of the huge flaws in the anti-immigration stuff in the UK is the idea that they should only be handing out visas to 'skilled' migrant workers - not realising that there are huge labour shortages in unskilled work and that British people are simply not prepared to do the work. They appear to have little understanding of how a modern economy actually functions. Giving visas to skilled overseas workers only, where there mightn't even be any shortages, is something very likely to impact negatively on British skilled workers (but this is all too nuanced for Daily Mail readers and Tory voters).

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120367591#Comment_120367591

One of the huge flaws in the anti-immigration stuff in the UK is the idea that they should only be handing out visas to 'skilled' migrant workers - not realising that there are huge labour shortages in unskilled work and that British people are simply not prepared to do the work.

I remember Bernadeete McAlliskey talking about this issue on some Norn Iron political discussion programme many moons ago, when immigration was first taking off on the island. She was aksing people who spouted this "They're taking our jobs" rhetoric "What jobs are they doing that you would want for yourself or your family?"

BoxcarWilliam99

"Announcing the plans in the Commons earlier this week, Home Secretary Braverman said asylum seekers arriving illegally in the UK will be detained without bail or judicial review for 28 days before being “swiftly removed” to their home country or a “safe third country” such as Rwanda.

They face a lifetime ban on returning once deported and will never be allowed to settle in the country or gain citizenship"

From the journal today.

In Ireland they might leave themselves or they might stay. Nobody knows and nobody seems to mind . Helen might throw another amnesty bash later.

You reap what you sow Ireland

high_tower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120367622#Comment_120367622

NI managed perfectly well and still does mostly to have almost the entire workforce at all levels as locals.

i remember I worked in Dublin in pubs back in 2005. Eventually got a job but it took an awful long time as the majority of the staff were poles. If they flood the place then there’s less chance of locals getting work - it’s simple mathematics.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120367688#Comment_120367688

why did staff already working in bars stop you from being able to get a job?

high_tower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120367706#Comment_120367706

?? If there’s more people there’s more competition for a finite amount of jobs. Is it that hard to understand ?

Ha Long Bay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120367832#Comment_120367832

There is more than 700 listings looking for vacancies at present for various bar roles on one site alone.

So to answer your question no.

Mr. teddywinkles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120367332#Comment_120367332

Building society around a business model is wrong especially when it's really a ponzi scheme. Mass migration so keep building houses.

Sounds like something that went south very quickly here in recent times dont you think

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120367909#Comment_120367909

ok but most people are thoroughly in favour of capitalism, this constant immigration is a symptom of it

Mr. teddywinkles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120367920#Comment_120367920

Did I say I wasnt in favour of capitalism. Theres not infinite number of the jobs you describe either way.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120367995#Comment_120367995

i think there are a lot of jobs now that irish people just wont do, and as the population and economy grows more and more of these jobs will be produced, creating more immigration.

Mr. teddywinkles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120367873#Comment_120367873

To be filled by migrants I presume. How many entered the country last year alone? 🙄

Ha Long Bay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120368011#Comment_120368011

Not sure what your point is here?

It was a migrant living in England I was responding to that said there was no bar jobs available in this country which is clearly false.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120367622#Comment_120367622

Yes indeed, instead of 'taking our jobs', it is much more likely that they are doing the jobs that none of the locals want to do. The idea that migrant workers are a burden or drain on the labour market is a myth (things like pressure on accommodation are a completely different story).

People in the UK saying that they want skilled migrant workers to be given work visas but not unskilled ones suggests they are buying into this nonsense and don't really understand how the labour market operates. There might not even be much in the way of shortages in the skilled labour force (as they are the jobs that everyone local wants to do).

babyducklings1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120368226#Comment_120368226

There is a shortage in the skilled labour force, we even now have a skills shortage list same as other countries like for example Australia or Canada have had for a good while. It’s not that local people wouldn’t want to do the jobs but they’d need to retrain and it’s very expensive to do university course here. Springboard is one option though.

rgossip30

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120366735#Comment_120366735

Baffling how people want ignore this and defend such mgration without a care and say only a few object and those are the far right .

Nosler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120367525#Comment_120367525

Wages would go up if immigration was reduced... it really is that simple. It's basic "supply and demand".

Anyway, bringing people in from abroad isnt cheap for Ireland. Someone comes to Ireland and gets an Irish passport. They then get all the free money from the Irish taxpayer.

Mass immigration makes Ireland poorer.

Nosler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120367591#Comment_120367591

Until about thirty years ago Ireland wasnt importing many people to work in meat factories and farms etc. What has changed?

Even if you accept that a country needs to import labour there is a way to go about it..... what Ireland should be doing is giving out a work visa for say about three years. At the end of three years that person is deported. The number of Visas should be limited and there should be a "one in, one out" policy.

What Ireland actually does is let someone work in Ireland, they then get a passport and can stay for good.

Mr. teddywinkles

Deleted