Time for a zero refugee policy? - *Read OP for mod warnings - updated 11/5/24*

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120382750#Comment_120382750

Thing is, I doubt many of these guys genuinely believe Varadkar is going to deliver the kind of seriously right-wing policies they are looking for, on immigration or anything else, but it's a convenient excuse for not getting off their arses and involved in real-world politics themselves:

• There's no party out there that represents my views
• Well why aren't you meeting up with like-minded people to organise such a party?
• Oh wait, Leo said the other day Ireland should be “fair, firm and hard” on migration. That must surely mean Fine Gael are committed to a comprehensive Farage-esque immigration policy. I will be totally shocked and devastated if FG don't deliver on that if they are in government after the next election.
• Well if FG are so totally committed to restricting immigration, why aren't they starting to do something about that in government now?

Luxembourgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120382974#Comment_120382974

People don't start a party because for the most part they are busy working and or raising the next generation of workers.

The system in Ireland with funding etc, favours larger established parties.

Strazdas

We literally have an anti-immigration and anti-refugee government on our doorstep (backed by an anti-immigration and strongly anti-refugee media)......and it's the worst ever UK government by some considerable distance.

Thinking these right wing populist guys have any sort of solutions is a bit misguided.

Nosler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120382969#Comment_120382969

There's a massive housing crisis in Ireland. It's the definition of lunacy allowing tens of thousands of asylum seekers into the country each year....

Th National Party seem the only party taking the issue seriously.

However I 100% accept anyone wanting to live with their parents at 40 should vote FFFG.

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120382997#Comment_120382997

"We stand against the criminal financial institutions which have enslaved future generations of Irish men and women to debt without end. We stand against the corrupt and amoral establishment who push replacement level immigration which will in time completely destroy Irish nationality. We stand against the project of a federated European Superstate which is explicitly anti-national and therefore anti-Irish. And most of all we stand against the decay of national spirit at the heart of our society."

https://nationalparty.ie/

Is the above quote in line with your views?

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120382972#Comment_120382972

A protest vote for a racist party counts exactly the same as a vote in support of racist ideology.

high_tower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120383018#Comment_120383018

whats racist about not wanting open borders and preserving the Irish national identity ? Genuinely curious

Thelonious Monk

If this site, the journal, social media sites are anything to go by you would think the national party would clean up in the next elections as they are the only ones in favour of limiting immigration. So why will they not get many votes? Or will they? Is it the anti-abortion thing?

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120382985#Comment_120382985

Fine but you understand that none of the established parties are under any obligation to implement 'a zero refugee policy' or whatever it is you guys are looking for? I mean if one of the parties embraced such a policy and failed to implement it when in government you'd be entitled to complain but they aren't and they're not going to...

enricoh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120383287#Comment_120383287

84% in a recent poll said there is a limit to the amount of refugees Ireland can take. The government is still saying no limit. The government is totally at odds with the wishes of the electorate.

Doesn't sound like a vote winner for me!

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/social-affairs/2023/02/23/irish-times-poll-majority-of-voters-support-ban-on-protests-at-refugee-centres/

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120383479#Comment_120383479

And you're entitled to make that argument in whatever forum and the established parties are entitled to ignore it, as they have been doing up to now. You will only be vindicated if they lose significant numbers of votes in a real-world general election to a party or parties advocating a clearly more restrictive line on immigration. And I wouldn't hold my breath on that...

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120383184#Comment_120383184

Are you unaware of who the national party are and what their ideology is?

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120383238#Comment_120383238

In fairness very few on here are openly expressing support for the National Party, Irish Freedom Party etc. The usual line is there is this massive pent-up demand for credible, sensible centre-right policies on immigration and other issues but somehow inexplicably nobody is coming forward to meet that demand...

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120383729#Comment_120383729

I don't know much about them but why wouldn't they support those parties, immigration seems to be the main issue for so many people in Ireland now?

Either that or just accept things the way they are.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120383184#Comment_120383184

it's racist because it's not that such individuals don't want open borders as hardly anyone does.

it's that really they don't want anybody who isn't white especially, or just foreign, in ireland.

they are not preserving our irish identity and are not really interested in preserving it, but rather enforcing a specific version of irish identity that they subscribe to, as in the irish identity of a century ago.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384088#Comment_120384088

Yep. White supremacy.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384364#Comment_120384364

that's exactly it.

they aren't fooling anyone, we know exactly what they are about.

tinsofpeas

I want a say in this entire immigration disaster.

Everyone should have a say.

The representatives of this country do not, in fact, represent the will of of this country.

Nobody had a say in it before, and now that it's clown town territory, this is the moment to see what ireland as a country of people wants for their own good.

A referendum was needed years upon years ago. The next best time is now.

Like all referenda, get a quality information booklet out to every home, spelling out all the demographic changes, all the pro's and con's, employment numbers, unemployment numbers, who's who in those statistics, the impact good and bad on housing, healthcare, education. Throw in projected numbers too, like the amount of new housing in 5 years versus the amount of extra people expected in 5 years.

Quality information backed up amply.

Then let people make an informed decision. It's a hell of a lot better than not letting people make a decision at all.

A rapidly changing world demands new policies, and those policies are to be created by the Irish people.

No immigration referendum, no vote. Let every politician and adjacent know it point blank.

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384459#Comment_120384459

The people do get a choice every 5 years at a maximum we are sent to the polls to replace the Dáil. That is our time for choice.

But anyway.

What is the referendum question you suggest we pose to the people?

tinsofpeas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384504#Comment_120384504

They have time and effort to implement utterly useless referendums like the changing of a few words in the "women in the home" yoke.

Immigration is, patently obvious, a burning question that has impact on multiple factors of society. It's getting bigger and bigger and its not going to diminish magically.

So yes, I want a specific referendum on immigration, and it's quite clear many, many others do too.

Narrowed down from the obvious choices of "more", "unchanged" or "less", with thoughtful input to flesh out those choices in some numerical terms.

Anyone against a democratic vote on a highly contentious and impactful national issue is on the losing side, know it, and want it avoided at all costs. Natural enough.

No immigration referendum, no vote. Let it be made clear.

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384559#Comment_120384559

Rightio.

And once again, what is the question you want put to the people in your referendum?

What does "No immigration referendum, no vote. Let it be made clear." mean?

Are you threatening the state that you wont vote if you don't get a referendum?

Because I don't think the government is reading or cares about your single vote.

tinsofpeas

I already answered your question as to the form it should take. Instead of asking the question twice, read carefully once.

When the politicians and hopeful representatives come looking for peoples votes, they should be told that they won't get a vote without the feasible promise of an immigration referendum. If they do, they get the vote.

People want a say in what's happening in their own country, and immigration (all its flavours) is right up there in terms of impact, be it housing or culture and all in between.

It's serious. And it's well beyond time for democracy to have its direct and specific say on it.

Again, no immigration referendum offered, no vote.

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384613#Comment_120384613

Do you know what a referendum is?

So say the politicians come to your door, lets go further and say its both michael martin and leo varadkar at the same time and you say;

Tinofpeas: you "won't get a vote without the feasible promise of an immigration referendum"

MM and LV: OK Tinofpeas what question should we the current leaders of the government put to the people in this referendum to appease you, so that we can be guaranteed you will vote in Irelands free fair democratic dáil election?

Tinofpeas: ?????

high_tower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384651#Comment_120384651

He’s already answered your question. Stop derailing this thread with your nonsense posts.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384667#Comment_120384667

He hasn't though. What will the question be on the referendum?

tinsofpeas

I already told you that instead of asking a question twice, read the answer once. That goes for asking three times too.

It wouldn't be any leap to infer that you're against such a referendum, under the guise of "its not needed" covering "uh oh, democracy isn't on my side and I know it well". But that's neither here nor there.

Any politician or adjacent that reasonably promises an immigration referendum gets my vote. It's top priority because it is an issue affecting and exacerbating just about every other facet of societal infrastructure.

And it's the same for huge amounts of this country, they want a say in the biggest societal change seen in this country this century.

Again, it's very serious and demands a serious political response and a serious representation of the country's people.

Anyone who doesn't want it, well, that's easy to understand where they're coming from.

No harm to those who think "it doesn't matter" if it takes place anyway then.

All good. Everyone gets a say, democracy wins, politicians do their jobs, and everyone can sleep easy afterwards knowing that specific important questions on society have been answered fairly and squarely.

So, no immigration referendum, no vote. Immigration referendum, you get the vote. Let every politician know when they come knocking. And every other opportunity before that too.

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384667#Comment_120384667

Tinofpeas replied to my post they did not answer my question.

ParkRunner

It’s not a referendum that’s needed, it’s a redrafting of the 1951 UN Convention and the European Convention on Human Rights to bring them into the 21st century!

Nosler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120383622#Comment_120383622

How about the ideology of FFFG? Allow mass immigration until ethnic Irish are a minority in Ireland?

National Party have the same policies that political parties the world over have... they want to look after the people that have been in the country for the last few hundred years...

How come it's acceptable to have a Japanese political party looking after Japanese. A Nigerian political party looking after Nigerians. A Pakistani political party looking after Pakistanis. But an Irish political party looking after Irish is unacceptable?

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384726#Comment_120384726

So why won't anyone vote for the National Party? Genuine question, I don't understand it as ireland seems to want serious immigration controls.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384688#Comment_120384688

What would the referendum ask?

Don't you see that it's such a ridiculously complicated and nuanced issue it's not really the type of thing you can put to referendum?

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384687#Comment_120384687

we have immigration control.

what we need now is the staff, funding and resources to make it work.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384691#Comment_120384691

ultimately he can't answer it, because the reality is most people couldn't care a less about brown and black people.

they have actual issues to worry about.

if people cared so much about brown and black people then knuckle draggers like the national party and irish freedom from what party would have huge vote shares.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384706#Comment_120384706

both conventions are in the 22nd century never mind the 21st, they were so from the start and don't need redrafting.

tinsofpeas

The reason it is difficult for any new group of governmental representation to appear is because we have a cabal of power structure.

The Government parties do not represent Ireland. They represent a minority, but they most certainly are not acting in the interest of the majority.

In just one of many examples, take the housing crisis. They have stood over it for nearly a decade, from its inception to every year being worse than the last. Simultaneously they have allowed and, factually, encouraged hundreds and hundreds of thousands of extra people into the housing crisis. For a cherry on top, they also decided to take take 10x the number of ukrainian refugees compared with France. In a housing crisis. Do those sound like the decisions of a government representing a people's own interests?

They have a carefully orchestrated system built over many decades that has all the paper standards of a democracy, yet on the ground their decisions, time and again, with increasing frequency, represent everyone BUT the majority of Irish people. They have an inherently undemocratic sway over media, nobody need guess that.

That's why it is extremely difficult for even the most pragmatic and sensible people to get into politics; the cute hoors have it wrapped up.

That said, it's time for these people to get the boot. It'll take a while and it won't be easy, but needs must.

And as usual, it starts at local level, demand what you want and put it up to them. In my case, and for many, many others too, it can begin by demanding an immigration referendum. High time.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384734#Comment_120384734

Here's a post from the Ukranian refugees thread, which I suspect may be typical of many of those hot and bothered about immigration

I'd wager that there are hundreds of thousand of votes there for the taking for any independent or party that are brave enough to stand up to this madness. Apart from a handful of independents the electorate doesn't really have a clear choice.

It's either the gobshites that are there now, Sinn Fein who are no better or the Far right loonies like the Freedom and National Parties, who no sane person would vote for. If a party like Aoutu took a gamble and stood up they'd see considerable gains in the next election, stealing many of these votes from disgruntled Shinners.

Many of these guys genuinely don't see themselves as 'far right' and would never vote for parties from that part of the spectrum.

tinsofpeas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384741#Comment_120384741

More, unchanged, or less. That's the ultimate question.

You go through every policy and derive the numbers to arrive at a presentable and enforceable choice.

A total cap at 10k per year? 10% for refugees, 15% for Family reunification, 30% for employment, 13% for student visas...it can all be worked out. It's not quantum physics. There's an army of civil servants working day in and out, they can do it.

But no matter what, the core question has been going begging for years without a single jot of an answer. People want the say in it now, today.

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384827#Comment_120384827

🤣🤣🤣🤣

Missing a call to replacement theory but good effort on getting the rest of the conspiracy stuff in none the less.

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384741#Comment_120384741

Can't we just ask for all the fordiners to go home?

tinsofpeas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384858#Comment_120384858

Jaysus you must be **** yourself at the thought of what you think Irish people would decide if they were allowed.

We all know the answer as to why this gigantic elephant in the room hasn't been dared addressed in any meaningful way. Because its plain bad news for irish people, no matter what way you cut it. Thats why they havent been allowed a say in it.

But we needn't argue over it. Put it to the test, a democratic, informed, public debate that has enforceable action behind it. Anyone with even a shred of confidence in their ideas or beliefs would back it. And those without confidence will try to deny democracy.

Simple as that.

tinsofpeas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384861#Comment_120384861

Do you know how you'd get your answer to what Irish people want as a country?

Ask them.

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384869#Comment_120384869

I'm not scared of questions. Especially questions that haven't even been formed in a persons mind as of yet.

For the last time today I'll ask again

What would we ask the people of Ireland. What is the question you think needs to be asked?

batman_oh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384364#Comment_120384364

So anybody that disagrees with the current mess is a white supremacist? Always amazes me both how absolutely warped some of your thinking is and how completely unwilling to accept anything that goes against your world view that you are. Its also interesting how you fling around insults here at anybody who doesn't subscribe wholesale to your views. Super tolerant

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384734#Comment_120384734

Because they are actual fascists

tinsofpeas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384886#Comment_120384886

"For the last time" you'll ask the question, yet again, that's already been answered?

That's great news.

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384889#Comment_120384889

🤣🤣🤣🤣

How have you got all that from what was said?

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384897#Comment_120384897

📰📰📰

Read all about it, the government has today announced the new referendum on immigration nicknamed the tinofbeans referendum.

The following text is the question to be put to the people of Ireland.

1. ?

Tell us today whether you support or disagree with this statement?

👎🤣

Nosler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384756#Comment_120384756

Every single issue Irish people face is made worse by mass immigration....

We all know there is a housing crisis. We all know that mass immigration is making this crisis worse.

It's the same with getting your kids into the local school or getting a hospital appointment. Mass immigration makes these things harder.

I dont think the National Party is the answer. However they are at least asking the right questions.....

What do you have to offer the debate? Call people you dont like "knuckledraggers"?

tinsofpeas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384907#Comment_120384907

Here's a question for you.

You think that a public, politically actionable decision by vote on immigration is...trite? Unnecessary, is that correct?

And as a follow up, would you rather that other people not get a say too?

enricoh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384889#Comment_120384889

Do many of these lads actually live in Ireland? Methinks not.