Time for a zero refugee policy? - *Read OP for mod warnings - updated 11/5/24*

tesla_newbie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120460337#Comment_120460337

It might be controversial amongst the media and NGO class , it certainly wouldn’t be controversial anywhere else including internationally as other EU countries have far lower acceptance rates

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120460337#Comment_120460337

The answer to other countries would be (not that we should care what they think):

- We have no more accomodation. The country is already in a housing crisis. Our own people are homeless. End of.

- The patterns observed in other EU countries aren't good. Would be negligent to expose our own citizens to the same risk.

There's nothing "right-wing" about common sense. You also say "populism" as if it's a bad thing. Populism means "power of the people against the privileged elite". Why wouldn't you support that? Politicians are another group that don't care about you. You do realize that, right? 😄

You seem to be constantly working against your own best interests, and instead advocate for groups who literally don't give a damn about you. Is that what it means to be "left-wing"?

If you really don't have any skin in the game, you are the definition of a "useful idiot". I'm not saying that to put you down or be rude, either; you're not a bad mannered person on here. However, I feel that is the most apt term to describe such a mindset at this time.

Goodnight, anyway; Happy Easter to yourself and everyone else!

Ramasun

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120460473#Comment_120460473

Eh.. no. That's not true while we're bound by the ECHR. That's why the far right wing of the Conservative and Unionist Party next door want out of it.

Ramasun

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120460497#Comment_120460497

Hello Suellen Braverman!

Yeah, but no. We're not British, we're not English, stop spreading their manure here please.

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120460337#Comment_120460337

You keep going on about the "far right" as a means of ignoring the reality of the situation or the posts put to you.

We can blame Twitter and America once again for that. The liberal" US media lost the run of itself when Trump got elected and everything since is "far right" if it's not in step with "the message".

Well, this isn't America and Trump is no longer president over there (although his successor is no better but for different reasons). This is IRELAND and this idiotic trend of our own liberal media and advocates trying to copy/paste America's politics, issues, terminology, and conflicts into our culture has likewise gone much too far.

FG and FF by the way might disagree with you as supposedly conservative centrist/centre-right parties historically, although I will agree that since Leo rose to power, that's increasingly theoretical as he chases likes for whatever Twitter crusade is trending. FF are just chasing whatever will save them from increasing irrelevancy and oblivion.

This nonsense though of a far right agenda in politics is just factually incorrect. There are no parties in the Dail that fit this description. What we have are varying degrees of left. There's far more danger of a "far left" party coming to power in the next elections.

Debate the issue absolutely, but stop with this nonsensical attempt to derail and diminish the points with these completely misplaced references to things that are best left on the cesspit that is Twitter or the falling apart at the seams country that is the USA.

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120460507#Comment_120460507

We're not Americans either, but that doesn't stop some (here and in the media) trying to push their agendas, problems, and terminology into debates here.

Guildenstern

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120460507#Comment_120460507

Racism obviously ok if it's aimed at the UK.

You've just lost any semblance of an argument you had with that comment.

maninasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120457553#Comment_120457553

30 million a week on refugee/asylum seeker housing now.

I welcome taking in Ukranian refugees to a certain, even large extent , but its time to cop on. 1.5 billion per year is a crazy number to be giving for temporary accommodation.

Make them pay towards their accommodation for a start, otherwise its way too generous compared to other countries e.g. Poland . We don't have anymore space for our own people let alone refugees. That is not an exagerration or racism, just a fact. Homelessness is increasing rapidly. Rental costs are increasing.

Of course the gobshite O Brien said they won't be made to contribute.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2023/0318/1363871-housing-refugees-in-hotels-unsustainable-obrien/

Why exactly?????????

Then they are proud that 15,000 Ukranian kids were taken into the Irish school system instead of continuing in their own system (fair enough if thats what they want), but doesn't mention the absolutely terrible lack of school places right around the country for Irish students. And the large impact of these children coming into these schools and classes.

Only last week would the minister of education FINALLY admit that they are completely overloaded.

Rather they would just pretend there are no limits and no severe impacts.

Drives me fecking bananas.

maninasia

Schools are at full capacity , yet there are so many other issues this is often papered over.

It's a mess and it has real negative impacts on kids and parents.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-41102485.html

Ramasun

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120460602#Comment_120460602

May the road rise to meet you fella.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120166880#Comment_120166880

Billionaires have applied for and received asylum; it’s not a test of wealth or poverty, it’s about security and safety. Clearly any wealthy asylum-seeker would be expected to support themselves.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120460626#Comment_120460626

What is Capacity at this stage?

Bursting at the seams.

We have tiny classrooms in a school built 50 years ago. We have a Junior Infant class that had an enrolment of 27 pupils in February 2022, to now 35 pupils.

27 pupils was already way over capacity as it was, considering 24 pupils is now Pupil- Teacher in Ireland. That is still one of the highest in Europe!

It is a severe Health and Safety issue at this stage and without a doubt, the pupil's education is severely impacted.

No matter how amazing a teacher is at their job, there is only so far you can spread yourself over the course of the day.

Imagine, as an example, trying to hear 35 children reading. Especially Junior Infants, who might be slower as they're learning.

Scandalous!

maninasia

It is a scandal and it means education standards have dropped significantly.

Also many kids can't find a place at all initially and best they can do is then find somewhere miles away after a lot of stress.

Of course no school bus places for lots of em either.

Nobody in the media seems to be talking about it cos it's showing negative effects of taking in so many so quickly. No problem with providing education opportunities to refugees but don't lower our education standards dramatically in an already stressed system (note I understand it is an existing issue that has been dramatically exacerbated in some areas).

Galwayguy35

Other countries would love to have an opt out clause like we have but the spineless fools we elect to run the country will never make use of it.

And there is absolutely no way the shinners will either if its MacDonald as Taoiseach when the dust settles after the next election.

Ramasun

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120460772#Comment_120460772

110,000 Irish famine refugees arrived in Canada in 1847, they were the ones who made it. There was no housing of any kind, the people arriving were generally in poor health and there were definitely no school places for them. Thankfully the Canadians didn't force them off their shores, though there were plenty who wanted to.

If you knew just a bit of our history you wouldn't be saying things like that. I'd be curious how you missed that part of Ireland's history.

BoxcarWilliam99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120451412#Comment_120451412

It's not good enough nor will they sustain it

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120460814#Comment_120460814

*Checks Canada on the World Map*

Second Largest by Size with one of the smallest populations.

Argument doesn't add up.

Also, the whole the Irish who built the world rings true.

As someone said in another post, the Irish didn't go Welfare Shopping (great description) around the world.

batman_oh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120460814#Comment_120460814

Excellent argument. I've not heard that before. Let's just take everybody from the third world in and we can party like its 1850. Literally the most brain dead point ever and it's thrown around like some sort of gotcha.

Galwayguy35

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120460814#Comment_120460814

Were the Irish getting free meals, accommodation and healthcare when they got there?

Or was it a case of work or starve?

I think we know the answer to that one.

maninasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120460814#Comment_120460814

Saying things like what? The TRUTH.

That the quality of education provided has DECREASED

Come on man spell it out instead of aul hackneyed poverty famine rant drivel from the 1800s.

Then putting false words in my mouth as if I advocated for Ukranians to be thrown out. Shameful behaviour.

How you gonna fix it so mine and other parents kids have school places in the neighbourhood?

That they don't go to school in ridiculously overcrowded classes?

What's the plan NOW?

Your type don't actually care it's all about looking good. It's you who have no shame.

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120460814#Comment_120460814

Oh not this tired and irrelevant argument again.

- The Irish didn't go travelling through multiple safe countries where they were offered shelter and basic provisions first.

- They didn't arrive expecting welfare and handouts and complaining (as that lad who arrived from the UK via NI did on RTE a while back) about the weather and that there wasn't a house waiting for them.

- They worked or they starved. Not quite the same situation as the one we are dealing with now.

- They sold what little they had to book passage and arrived with what they could carry. Not like now where they can bring their cars across the breadth of Europe (again bypassing the multiple safe countries on the way) , use them here without having to comply with the same regulations or prerequisites as the natives, and where in some cases they're not road legal. I was behind a Chinese something or other with Ukrainian plates last week that looked pretty new but had US-style red indicators. Confusing if you haven't seen it before.

- They certainly weren't able to take holidays home, and still claim they were fleeing the place.

- There weren't lots of other nationalities claiming they were Irish to try and get access to the same goodies.. Oh wait, what goodies! That's right - there weren't any!

There's lots of other examples, but can people stop dragging up this "the Irish went everywhere" nonsense when they run out of a coherent retort? It's just not comparable to what we are dealing with 150+ years later.

Ramasun

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120460900#Comment_120460900

Bullshit you don't know the answer to those questions or you're nor Irish.

BoxcarWilliam99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120460944#Comment_120460944

I believe the answer was and still is no.

Ramasun

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120460932#Comment_120460932

They said the same about Irish famine refugees. They have it too easy, they get a free tent, everyone is praying for them.

Try go without wifi for a week and see what level of refugee you might me.

maninasia

Tell me how are you going to deal with the slipping standards of a public education system that was already struggling?

The no.1 factor in quality education is the Teacher:Pupil ratio.

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120460959#Comment_120460959

I have genuinely no idea what you're even on about now. Sometimes it's better to just say nothing you know..

Anyway, now that we've debunked the "back to the 1850s" point, would you care to comment on how you propose we sustain the situation here in 2023 where essential services are being massively stretched, where people are sleeping on the streets because there's nowhere to put them, where a country that can't provide those essential basics for its own citizens is somehow expected to do so for anyone who arrives?

Also, WHY should we do so? Ireland as a country gives away a lot of money annually in foreign aid - both at national and individual levels - to the point where we were STILL giving 650 million annually during the financial crisis! We also have taken in more people than we can handle in the last 12 months - on top of the numbers in direct provision lodging appeal after appeal.

In short, we've more than done our part as a small island nation on the edge of Europe that itself has been very exposed to the economic winds and turmoil of the past decade.

We can't save or house everyone, and nor should we, nor be expected to - and certainly not at the expense of the natives and citizens who are already struggling to even keep a roof over their heads at this stage.

maninasia

And our schools ARE struggling. They were struggling already with 1000s of classes with more than 30 kids in the class which is bottom of the league in the EU.

No class should have more than 24 kids. The target is actually 20 kids per class.

When you hear stuff about the 'quality of Irish education' it really doesnt stack up that well at all.

https://www.buzz.ie/news/irish-news/primary-school-classroom-ratios-27664072?int_source=amp_continue_reading&int_medium=amp&int_campaign=continue_reading_button#amp-readmore-target

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120461017#Comment_120461017

There's also the not very "PC", but still very important point that if you add 5-10 kids into a class who may have little to no English, who themselves are still trying to adjust to the upheaval in their young lives and without the skills to deal with it that maturity brings, and who come from a very different culture, that it's going to significantly affect the teacher's/SNA's ability to give attention to others in the class who need it, never mind the progress of the class as a whole.

It might not be nice for some to hear, but simply overstuffing classes does neither the new arrivals nor those already there any favours.

Ramasun

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120460962#Comment_120460962

It does seem to be slipping, if some comments here are anything to go by.

My experience is that people in Ireland understand that our standard of living is artificially inflated by corporation tax receipts on revenue generated outside of Ireland. To pull up the drawbridge would be a very bad idea until we can balance the books without those extraordinary receipts from FMNCs. That gravy train will not last for much longer.

Immigrants are generally good for the economy. If you have the smarts to make it to the far-most rock on the edge of Europe you have something to offer the economy. We didn't have to pay for the hospital you were born in, the house you grew up in, the school you were educated in and we get your income tax revenues for as long as you stay and maybe you retire in your country of origin.

Meanwhile many of the eijets objecting to immigrants are doing so because they see them as competing for welfare services. Net drain on the economy, wish they'd emigrate.

BoxcarWilliam99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120461046#Comment_120461046

This is about refugees not immigration.

For immigrants we need highly skilled individuals to fill skills gaps and pay into the pool which allows our economy to grow and everyone benefits

Do we need unqualified for anything people who bury women up to their neck and then throw stones at them until they die? Not really

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120461046#Comment_120461046

Ah I see.. now that the "1850s" argument has failed, you are trying to drag in legal and productive migration to muddy the waters. Ok then...

I doubt there's very many working in the multinationals you refer to who arrived off the plane with no passport, or in the back of a container, or who skipped through multiple countries first to get here and claim asylum.

No, those other migrants came here legally, with skills to offer and/or a job to come to, and have indeed contributed positively to our tax take and society. No one has any problem with that and I challenge you to find a post that does. Those folks are not the issue being discussed here.

But you already know that of course!

Backstreet Moyes

The most confusing thing to me is the people fleeing wars.

They all seem to be young men which is different from all wars in the past.

Women, kids and elderly were sent for refugee while men stay behind and fight.

These days the men flee and let the women, kids and elderly fight wars.

It's almost as if it's made up.

Ramasun

For people claiming asylum there is a legal process to decide if they have the right to stay or not.

If you are objecting to that process then "Hello Suellen Braverman", take your manure with you.

high_tower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120461046#Comment_120461046

give over would you. Stop grouping all immigrants in together. We all know here there’s a difference between a doctor moving over with his family and the trackie clad groups of young men from god knows where.

Go have a look at who’s in the city west or east wall complex and tell me they’ll be anything over than one big net drain. They’re the same people that travel all around Europe leeching until they move on. And in Ireland they’ve hit the benefits jackpot.

high_tower

I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if the govs in Algeria , Georgia etc use this migration crises as a way to push out a load of the dregs. Send them off to be someone else’s problem.

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120461102#Comment_120461102

I'm afraid the "racists, racists everywhere!" tactic doesn't wash here my friend.

Ireland is known the world over for its generally easy going and welcoming attitudes. But even that has limits, especially when it's being blatantly abused by some. That's the problem. That and the reality you seem determined to ignore with your deflecting and whataboutery - namely there's only so much we can do, we're already doing enough, and now we have real problems because of folks like yourself insisting that we "do more!"

Try responding to some of the questions and points put to you by myself and others maybe?

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120460329#Comment_120460329

No

Legal obligations to accept people as refugees are nothing to do with assessing people to see if they are refugees or not. Sorry you are getting 2 completely things mixed up.

tesla_newbie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120461181#Comment_120461181

One precedes the other, we are an outlier in terms of the latter

Bobtheman

I wish this thread would die. I really do. I started it

Ireland should have a tougher refugee policy because

1) We actually have now one of the highest immigrant populations in the EU. Time to concentrate on integration

2) we simply don't have space because of the war in the Ukraine and a housing crisis

3) We had a weak system that allowed undocumented people board planes etc

We still need some immigrants in specialist areas but with the housing crisis best to take those arriving with a visa so we can assume they have somewhere to go.

We must look after the Ukrainians above all else otherwise we are turning our backs on a European democracy

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120461187#Comment_120461187

They are completely different things.

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120461191#Comment_120461191

I agree in principle with all of this, except the last paragraph.

We should look after Ukrainians, or any other GENUINE refugees, insofar as is realistic and sustainable given all of the other challenges we face in this country, and not at the expense of limiting, denying or otherwise negatively impacting those same essential services and supports needed by our native and existing legal citizens.

Charity begins at home and we have more than enough problems to deal with right here. I have sympathy for the Ukrainian situation of course, but let's not forget that they have a vast country to seek refuge in, not to mention all the others they must pass through to get to Ireland.

We can only do so much, and we absolutely have no room for welfare shoppers or economic migrants who have no needed skills to offer or jobs lined up.

We absolutely have no place for those who destroy their documents or turn up in the back of containers from France, or whom abuse our hospitality by committing serious crimes. All of these should be escorted to the airport and put on a plane back to wherever they arrived from.

SuperBowserWorld

This thread has run its course.

I am sick to death of manufactured Irish guilt on refugees/immigration/racism.

If people, Irish or otherwise, are claiming we are racist, violent, anti immigrant, ... then they should take a long hard look at the countries and societies people are seeking refuge from.

high_tower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120461334#Comment_120461334

This is one of the only sites with a good two way debate. Every other Irish site seems to be all about open borders.

SuperBowserWorld

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120461367#Comment_120461367

Yep, it's very undemocratic where the conversation is all one way, and no way represents the opinion of the population, just those who are most noisy on social media.

The thread title is wrong and inflammatory here unfortunately. A tiny percentage of the population are advocating zero refugees.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120460597#Comment_120460597

My main point would be though that we don't have a particularly high intake of refugees compared to any other country in Europe. For much of the period between 2010 and 2020, the number of asylum seekers was very much on the low side compared to other EU states. I'm scratching my head that being 'anti-refugee' seems to be a thing in Ireland or that we have seen protests outside direct provision centres and hotels this year.

It does seem like people are deliberately conflating the housing / accommodation crisis with the refugee issue, when they are two completely different subjects. Nearly all asylum seekers live in state accommodation (direct provision centres, hostels, hotels, army barracks etc), not in houses or apartments. Every single country in Europe has asylum centres and a refugee population. The protests here almost seem to be suggesting that we are some sort of outlier.

BoxcarWilliam99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120461417#Comment_120461417

You are jumping back and forth between refugee and asylum seeker.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120461459#Comment_120461459

Invariably they turn out to be the same thing. Certainly a majority of people who claim asylum in any given country usually have their claim granted and are then classed as refugees.

Ramasun

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120461166#Comment_120461166

If you're objecting to the current system what is your alternative?

Ramasun

We have a legal system in place to deal with asylum seekers and if it's not working that's on us not the refugees.

Kyokushin Grappler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120461334#Comment_120461334

The labels "Racist","Fascist",etc have lost their meanings because that seems to be one side's only way of debating their policies.