Time for a zero refugee policy? - *Read OP for mod warnings - updated 11/5/24*

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120174823#Comment_120174823

A few months ago I observed 3 non-EU passengers refused boarding from an EU country to Ireland. The Swissport staff member in the waiting lounge called immigration in Dublin, Dublin basically told them if you put them on the plane, we'll be sending them back. I was sitting next to the Swissport desk and was cocking my ear listening to the conversation.

I don't think you know what you're talking about.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120175233#Comment_120175233

The very same when you travel to the US / Canada or anywhere else. These countries don't know if you're a raging pedo or a crackhead when you roll up at the immigration desk. The international system of travel would grind to a halt and no one would be able to travel anywhere at short notice if we adopt the vet the hell out of everyone because of right wing cranks.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120175419#Comment_120175419

But can anyone deny that Ukrainian people are genuine refugees? Surely nobody could claim that people who have fled their country, which has been invaded and its capital is under regular missile attack, are 'economic migrants'.

If the objection is even to Ukrainian people coming here, then it suggests that the objectors don't want any more refugees arriving into Ireland, even from actual war zones.

On the point of the UK and France, keep in mind that they are sending military aid to Ukraine. It may be that our policy of accepting refugees from there is being framed because we are unable to help them militarily.

Nosler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120175528#Comment_120175528

With respect, you really dont know what you are talking about.

There is near famine conditions in Afghanistan since the yanks pulled out. The yanks froze the money in the Afghan banks. Afghans come to europe for the free food and money. I can assure you a lot of Afghan refugees absolutely hate Irish values.

You think like a European. You think "I bet if we let these Afghans in they will be really thankful and they wont hate us". While the reality is "All powerful Allah has allowed us into the land of the infidel to spread the one true religion". Cultures just think differently...

ISIS arent in Syria? As I said you dont know what you are talking about.

I served in Iraq. I worked in the Middle East. What's your experience in the Middle East?

keynes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120175584#Comment_120175584

Question was, why a disproportionate number are coming here. (Leave aside the fact that Ukraine is an enormous country and vast swathes of it are safe.)

Re France, UK and US, their military aid is of course a large boon to their own flagging industrial sectors. The same can't be said for us taking 70,000+ in the midst of a housing crisis

Jinglejangle69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120175553#Comment_120175553

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2022/10/06/thousands-of-passengers-destroy-or-lose-passports-before-arrival-at-dublin-airport/

Ok.

lmao10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120175637#Comment_120175637

Not going to believe you served in Iraq or anywhere or work in the middle east unless you can prove that.

As I said, you love your country and government then you will most likely stay to help and improve it. If they are going to die from famine then surely they are legitimate refugees and not economic migrants so I'm glad you feel that Afghans are legitimate. You have your opinion on their mindset as a whole, good luck with that, you'll find agreement from many on here. Not from me. If a country has saved your life by providing refuge then gratitude is there. No point going round in circles with you as I'm sure you love degrading other "cultures".

Read up on the civil war in Syria at the moment. No interest in educating you on that either.

Good luck. Hopefully someone else will entertain your posts and you'll get some replies.

Nosler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120175736#Comment_120175736

Ehhhmmm ok. When I'm next in the UK I'll take a photo of my body armour and campaign medal.. How do you want me to prove I worked in the Middle East?

What's your experience of working abroad? Zero?

OK, tell you what. The next time you're in Dublin and see a Muslim man and his wife out walking you ask the wife how she is doing. Just make some normal small talk with her, talk about the weather etc. Come back here and tell us how you got on?

While you're at it. You ask them what they think of irish girls that dont cover themselves up?

I'm not saying every Afghan refugee isnt grateful to the irish people. But I'd guess a good 30% really dont like irish culture...

Islamic State produced a monthly magazine. In one issue they had an article detailing why they hated the West. Maybe you should read the article? I believe the main reason they hated us was because we weren't muslims.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120175638#Comment_120175638

The situation is far from ideal and nobody can deny that the arrival of 70,000 people in a year isn't putting massive pressure on accommodation in the country. If anything, I'd say the government have handled the Ukrainian refugee issue quite poorly - agreeing in principle to the arrival of tens of thousands of Ukrainians, but without the forward planning in place (this seems to be a recurring theme with their handling of housing and accommodation shortages....they are very poor at planning one or two years down the line).

I think taking in a lot of Ukrainian refugees in the middle of a war is the right thing to do, but it can't be denied for a moment that this is also a huge challenge for the country. I reckon they should be looking for far more radical emergency accommodation solutions and stop using hotels to house refugees - that seems a total cop out and an example of lazy thinking.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120167027#Comment_120167027

Survived handsomely?

You are aware that during that era, Irish people here lived in mud and stone single room huts, in abject poverty and squalor with literally only spuds to eat.

That's what I don't get, this harking back to the pre famine era, as if it's some sort of gotcha for those that think there is no capacity problem. It isn't.

In any case, it looks like the hard realities of capacity constraints as well as the increasing difficulty of politically keeping a lid on things has shifted thinking on Merrion st.

Looking forward now to hearing how they are going to attempt to time limit accommodation support without causing an explosion in rough sleeping.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120175841#Comment_120175841

agreeing in principle to the arrival of tens of thousands of Ukrainians, but without the forward planning in place

Thing is Putin didn't give us any advance warning. Well he did but most people were hoping he wouldn't go through with what he was signalling...

I think any government would have to be improvising on a week-by-week basis in dealing with this situation...

Nosler

Most of Ukraine isnt effected by the war...

However the economy of Ukraine has been destroyed... A lot of Ukrainians have fled because they don't have a job. I can't blame them for fleeing, in their position I'd be doing the exact same.

However maybe there is a better way of helping Ukrainians? How much does it cost to look after a Ukrainian in Ireland? It must cost 100 euro a day? 70,000 Ukrainians at 100 euro is 7 million a day.

That 7 million would go so much further in Ukraine..... Ireland could be shipping off temporary accommodation to ukraine and giving money to people in Ukraine. The war has been going on for a year now. At this stage ireland could have been shipping building supplies over and employing locals to build temporary accommodation.

Hungry Burger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120175800#Comment_120175800

Shur they’ll all come over and Abdul and Maryam will be playing hurling in the local GAA club within a day and the parents will be down the local supping pints.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120175736#Comment_120175736

I think your thinking here is similar to the naive thinking of the Americans before the Iraq invasion. That everyone is essentially the same, with the same values and wanting democracy, it is just an evil dictator/mullah etc that is the problem. People don't all have the same values. Religious belief is much stronger than any loyalty or gratitude to the state. Many who come here will find they are at the bottom rung, no skills and difficult to find work. If they are on welfare, then there is resentment from some of the local population (especially those who rely on the state themselves as they are stealing OUR stuff). This is basically what we are seeing now.

The Ukrainian situation is completely different. They are a neighbouring country to the EU and they would have nowhere else to go. So, of course we have to help them as much as possible. I believe this type of case was the intention of the original 1951 UN refugee convention. With the Ukrainians, I would go further and also say they are doing something that we all benefit from in fighting against Russian aggression.

The case in the paper of the Afghan man, mentioned earlier, is completely different for me. I think a lot of people will justifiably wonder why he has come all the way here from Afghanistan. To me, it is about as logical as him seeing the logical course of action is to make his way to Hawaii (in fact Hawaii would make more since since the US was involved in the war).

At the moment we have Europe bearing the brunt of economic refugees from Africa and the ME. The US can cherry pick university professors, scientists and doctors from these areas, who will obviously succeed in their new home. China, Australia, Japan, South Korea and most of the wealthier middle eastern countries take feck all of the type of low skilled economic migrants we get in the EU.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120175274#Comment_120175274

Completely incorrect, our rejection rate is 10%, EU average rejection rate is 60%, France rejects 70%

Bobtheman

I think we need a government figure to discuss the issue at length. That rejection rate for instance. To verify it.

I would also reject any violence such as is reported in the papers today. The law must be respected above all else. Attacks on migrants are deplorable.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120176553#Comment_120176553

I agree.

Asylum seekers attacking other asylum seekers/migrants such as those in citywest should be deported immediately

MegamanBoo

Don't build hate, build houses.

That's the problem here. We had so much goodwill to the Ukrainian cause last year which is getting lost because of their perceived role in the housing problems we have in this country.

We are a wealthy country, we should not have been running such a housing deficit in the first place.

We were already so short of houses before this happened and this is more pressure on a broken system.

I can only imagine how I'd feel if I had a relative homeless, and watching Ukrainians being homed first.

But it's not those people's fault, it's our governments.

We should never have been running at such a housing deficit in the first place. No one can blame Russia or that being a 'surprise'. The rot has been there for years.

Backstreet Moyes

The fact is that most everyday people did not know much about what is going on due to us having a dishonest media.

But people are starting to see what is going on and are getting fed up.

I was at the self service in dunnes on Saturday and two women were discussing what is happening.

I was out for a few pints yesterday and it was a big discussion and how it's a disgrace.

In a large whatsapp group where a new video of a women naked and attacking a security guard in City west is getting a lot of people annoyed.

Visually we are going to start seeing people sleeping on streets very soon.

It is a disgrace what is going on and I don't see how the government aren't doing anything to address the issue.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120176682#Comment_120176682

Ukrainians aren't being housed first, unless you mean being housed in a hotel. They are not getting special treatment over our more "deserving" (arguable if someone on the dole sitting around waiting to be housed is more deserving in my opinion) citizens

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120176729#Comment_120176729

Yeah it's quite horrific. Don't know where your from but there's been an upsurge in people on the streets for a while here in Limerick.

Horrible to see people sleeping rough in an Irish winter and with the wealth we have now.

It's crazy but as far as I know rough sleepers aren't even included in our homeless figures. If that isn't massaging the numbers I don't know what is!

Ffg out, out, out.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120176756#Comment_120176756

Yes I mean hotels. And these promised modular houses, which I believe still haven't materialized. Pathetic.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120176769#Comment_120176769

Also I don't think you're up with what's been going on the last few years if you think it's only people on the dole struggling to get housing.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120176775#Comment_120176775

It isn't only those on the dole struggling to get housing, but it is mostly those on the dole expecting the state to house them.

In Fingal, 12% of applicants for social housing are working:

Backstreet Moyes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120175528#Comment_120175528

We see what seems to be weekly terror attacks across Europe.

The taliban are obviously sending believers to Europe to carry out terrorist attacks.

People like yourself think ah sure it will be grand, what's the problem with housing men from third world countries who we can't identify.

I mean if I was a leader in the taliban I would be looking at ireland as a great way to get soldiers into Europe to carry out attacks.

I don't think we should have a zero refugee policy but we should for people turning up with no documentation.

If I was a decision maker in the EU I would be getting onto Ireland for making it easy for terrorists to enter Europe.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120176799#Comment_120176799

Jaysus you fairly cherry picked your figures there! In other larger areas it's almost as many employed as unemployed.

Also does unemployed include the disabled and retired? Would you have those on the street too?

Nor does this allow that a lot of working people who can't afford housing are excluded from applying for social housing.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120176833#Comment_120176833

Wow, almost as many working as not working? That's brilliant and completely negates my point!

I think social housing should be for low income workers, disabled and pensioners. The HAP system should be for those without a history of working. There is a culture here that encourages the types of life choices that result in Fingal's social housing application stats.

Many of the Ukrainians are coming here to work, I have met quite a highly skilled people (several PhDs and even a medical doctor although she isn't recognised here). I would argue that these people will contribute more to the country than our "deserving" citizens who think they are owed everything.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120176869#Comment_120176869

Ah ok, I understand what you're saying now.

I appreciate where you're coming from, the only issue I'd take with it is where does that leave the children of the 'undeserving' poor?

I think if you're not a parent and not working, you're lucky for the state to be providing any basic housing for you.

But is it fair bringing up kids on a lower tier like that?

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120176903#Comment_120176903

They would still have HAP. Which of course is not as good as social housing as you might have to move from time to time. But, due to it being less desirable, it means it will encourage people to make the kind of choices that get you onto the social housing list. This is benefit for everyone. It also has the advantage of not concentrating LWI households in the one area.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120176831#Comment_120176831

The taliban are obviously sending believers to Europe to carry out terrorist attacks.

That is a fairly meaty claim, please provide evidence?

I mean if that is true they are in direct violation of the agreement they have with the US and Kabul command would be levelled.

Bobtheman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120176948#Comment_120176948

By replying you are taking him seriously. I'm sure some groups are attempting that but the taliban have enough on their plate ruining their own nation

enricoh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120176682#Comment_120176682

Catchy line but pure rubbish. Who's going to build the houses? Do you think there's loads of builders sitting at home at the minute waiting for the phone to ring?

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120176799#Comment_120176799

Just dont look up the nationalities of those on the housing list!

Backstreet Moyes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120176948#Comment_120176948

I have no interest in entertaining you.

Everytime me or anyone else asks you to back up a claim you deflect and never back it up.

So I will do as you do when asked to back up a statement and ignore the request.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120177106#Comment_120177106

So you invented a scenario in your head with the sole purpose to scare monger?

Would that be accurate?

It certainly isn't unique.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120177062#Comment_120177062

Indeed. The problem is though certain people will believe the nonsense.

TomTomTim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120177065#Comment_120177065

The Poles & Turks that built modern Ireland, can surely rustle up a few hundred thousand houses for us?

Seriously though, there's an army of people who think that just building more houses will fix everything, while ignoring the obvious of course, that being that it's nearly impossible to build enough houses to catch up with the problem. Even if we built a hundred thousand houses in the morning, it would barely put a dent in the problem. Sadly, Ireland is a nation full of people with child like solutions to real problems.

Bobtheman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120177150#Comment_120177150

It would go a long distance towards solving it. One thing I know is if you believe that tons of builders are waiting to be signed up to building government/public houses and also expected to raise finance you are pretty naive. However the government has recently decided to provide finance but its a bureaucratic nightmare.

A developer I know said he went into a coma on page 60 of the guide.

Economics101

The refugee issue has been caught up in the longer-term housing problem.

To understand this you have to go back to the Celtic Tiger boom and bust. This left a swathe of bankruptcies in its trail which destroyed capacity in the building industry and made lending for housing seem a much more risky proposition. On top of that we had an embarrassing housing surplus for a few years (remember all those ghost estates?).

No wonder policy turned to foreign capital for housing finance: let others take on some of the risk, having almost ruined our economy with excessive exposure of Irish banks. In addition, social housing got caught up in this big disruption of 2008-13.

So what we are seeing now is to some extent the long-term damage done by the Great Recession. Pile in extra demand from refugees and asylum seekers and you have just an extra source of pressure on housing.

maccored

no point blaming refugees or having a zero refugee policy. how about a government that either doesnt make promises it cant keep or else figures out how to keep its word.

Bobtheman

While on the topic of housing the government proposal to persuade landlords to stay in the market by allowing them more right offs says it all. Washing machine etc

Shows how disconnected they are from the rental market. Landlords are leaving because of the uncertainty of legislation. Eviction bans appear and disappear. The residential tenancy board takes a year to settle disputes.

The tax on rental profits is 50%. That is a killer. The state takes a couple of hundred off rent each month and gives it to some tenants. Rather than lowering tax rates in exchange for some rent reduction.

You can't right off the Mortage and many landlords are still in negative equity.

The approach of a SF government won't help either.

Less and less rental properties

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120177206#Comment_120177206

Governments ( in the abstract) can’t choose to make everything fine and dandy if external events blindside even a sound plan, to listen to some you would think the Irish government opt to have a housing mess for sh1te and giggles and if they wanted, they could build enough for everyone including any number of Ukrainians or Georgians , only the naive and ideologues like Rory Hearne believe that

the government could of course admit we need to hit the pause button with regard asylum seekers, this “ international protection obligations “ cry by the NGO sector can be ignored, time people began asking if the Irish government answer primarily to the Irish voters or agenda pushing NGO parties?

people are fed up being condescended to

tinytobe

I would not be in favour of a complete zero refugee policy. I think that Ireland should be taking refugees, but the refugee policy should be tied to housing and whether we can accommodate them.

There is absolutely no point to bring in refugees but then not offering them or being able to offer them anything to stay, just containers and tents.

Run Forest Run

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120177206#Comment_120177206

Unfortunately, there is a point.

Our political class have been busy rolling out the welcome mat for every tom dick and harry who wants to come here, regardless of what value they might actually bring to our nation. And at great cost to the lives of our citizens.

The chances of these corrupt scoundrels doing a complete 180, and plugging up the leak in the short to medium term without massive pressure and backlash from the public, is next to zero. We still have planks like Eamon Ryan, who think we should be aiming for the same population density as the Netherlands - which would put us at around 45 million+ people... so these delusional fools actually see no problem with flooding our country with unsustainable numbers of people. If we don't stand up to these people, then we'll all be living in their dystopian nightmare vision of the future!

If we don't make Ireland an unattractive place for illegal immigrants to come, then our nation will be completely unrecognisable in a very short space of time. That's the stark reality we are facing unfortunately. We can't rely on our so-called "leaders" to do the sensible thing, so we'll just have to force their hand through more aggressive tactics.

HerrKuehn

One thing that I think is clear is that Irish people do not like to see the system taken advantage of or cheated. I would argue this is the reason why we had such a large majority in favour of changing citizenship rules in the referendum. In the early 2000's we had women arriving and having babies shortly after, thus allowing them to stay (so called anchor babies).

We also saw the Pamela Izevbhekai case where she was claiming a daughter who didn't exist died of FGM. There was a lot of support for her at the time from the media, the Kitty Holland/Sorcha Pollack types. More recently we had the case of Donna Vuma, who arrived from SA on a fake passport and claimed asylum. Her linkedin showed she had been working in SA for years before coming here on fake passport. I think this is cheating and taking advantage of the system. In my opinion, if she was in SA for years, in employment, she really isn't in need of refuge (even if Ireland is objectively a better place to live than SA, it isn't about picking your favourite).

Given how expensive it is to provide the supports required, we should at least make sure that those availing of the support are actually entitled to it. We have a very poor record of deporting people who do not win approval. Airlines should be required to have a copy of any ID that was used to board a plane and not allow people on without it. This would get rid of the chancers destroying their documentation on the flight.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120177692#Comment_120177692

I agree completely with the above, no to cheats but also no to zero refugee policy. but I think throughout history there have been peoples that have to flee from countries to escape persecution like the Jews before WW2, Bosnians in Yugoslav civil war, people fleeing Taliban nowadays etc. We are lucky to be born in a develop stable country like Ireland I see no problem in offering a minimum level of charity to those less fortunate.

pauly58

I saw on a placard a woman was holding saying " Room for all at East Wall " as The Times said there were 50 million in Africa looking to come to Europe, perhaps this lady would like them all to come here.

I wouldn't like to see a halt to all genuine refugees, but where is genuine ? I would say for a start, women & children only from Eastern Ukraine & women from Afghanistan, definitely no Algerians of Georgians for example.

This is what happens when there is no plan at all from our Government. I have every sympathy with people from Zimbabwe, but Ireland is too small to be able to solve the world's problems.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120177850#Comment_120177850

Open borders is a valid position, supported by the likes of Kitty Holland. The thing is you can either have a strong social safety net or open borders, you can't have both. To suggest otherwise is either extremely naive or dishonest. I would be inclined to think the media are dishonest with respect to this rather than naive. I also think most people would prefer to have the social safety net rather than open borders.

maccored

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120177299#Comment_120177299

the government we currently have made agreements about refugees that it couldnt support. ignore that though, right?

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120177850#Comment_120177850

Western Ukraine is not safe - Kyiv and Lviv are regularly hit by missiles and there are frequent power cuts as the Russians keep targeting the energy grid. The capital very much represents a city under siege, with air raid sirens going off all the time. Schools in Kyiv are closed currently because of the frequent missile attacks and power shortages.