Time for a zero refugee policy? - *Read OP for mod warnings - updated 11/5/24*

Luxembourgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120506984#Comment_120506984

I also work in analytics, I find it astonishing people can dismiss actual tangible data points on this issue when it doesn't suit their narrative

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120506506#Comment_120506506

For sure, but I suspect interest in this may be somewhat transient. There has definitely been a lot of stuff in the media about accommodation for asylum seekers and refugees in the last few months and we've also seen questions about immigration policies creeping into most current opinion polls. But it's the type of issue that could be a relative non event in a general election campaign (autumn 2024 presumably). I don't get the feeling it will move front and centre at any point between now and then....more like a side issue behind things like the housing crisis and cost of living. It doesn't help the anti-immigration guys that even the main opposition parties don't want to make a thing of it.

creeper1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120506339#Comment_120506339

He doesn't want to apply in Pakistan because they are third world and his standard of living would be low. He doesn't want to apply in one of the wealthy gulf states because they don't offer this service.

He chose Ireland because of the reasons you alluded to.

I believe it was Katie Hopkins who asked the question "if Islam is so great why are most of the refugees choosing former Christian (now increasingly atheist of course) countries to move to?"

It's a valid question.

batman_oh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120507373#Comment_120507373

We are horrible racists as our media and left wing friends like to tell us relentlessly, yet everybody wants to be here. Weird

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120507311#Comment_120507311

You’ve wheeled out that ‘anti immigration guys’ trope repeatedly throughout this thread. It’s now time for you to define the cohort to whom you’re referring.

Precisely, who are these ‘guys’? The small number of fringe right wing parties? The protesters, who articulated their concerns about large numbers of IPAs being dropped into their communities, under the cloak of darkness? The guys down the pub who complain about the visible demographic changes in their neighbourhood? Or perhaps your definition is broader? Does it encompass all Irish people who are concerned about the current volumes of inward migration and desire the implementation of more robust controls? Which is it?

I don’t agree with you on anything and believe your posting style to be utterly disingenuous. However, you are correct in your assertion that immigration is unlikely to be front-and-center in the next GE. Conversely, where you’re utterly incorrect is declaring this issue to be transient. As the demographic composition of our population continues to change, the levels of anxiety and discomfort will rise inexorably, manifesting in the political discourse. It’s coming whether you like it or not..

Luxembourgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120507311#Comment_120507311

This poll was before the wider protests and media attention

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120507311#Comment_120507311

But it's the type of issue that could be a relative non event in a general election campaign..It doesn't help the anti-immigration guys that even the main opposition parties don't want to make a thing of it.

To take this point to the extreme, it could be one of the main issues for the voters but turn out not to have a significant impact on the outcome of the election as many/most of those looking for more restrictive immigrant policies may conclude they have nobody credible to vote for who would be proposing to implement such policies...

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.businesspost.ie/politics/state-officials-to-contact-president-asking-if-aras-could-house-refugees/

Tells us all we need to know about the catastrophic situation we are in that the state wants to tap the President's residence for room.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120508356#Comment_120508356

The anti-immigration people would be those who believe it is "time for a zero refugee policy" as per the title of this very thread.

When you speak of 'the implementation of more robust controls' on immigration, what are you referring to? It's very difficult to see how the Irish government could do anything without being in serious breach of EU freedom of movement rules and / or international refugee law.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120508441#Comment_120508441

Any party promising such policies in its election manifesto would be proposing something illegal under current international refugee law, to which Ireland has signed up to. Before anyone says they are merely proposing that Ireland 'opt out' of the international refugee system, this would viewed by most as a pretty outrageous thing for any political party to put into an election manifesto....the worst type of cynical populism designed to win votes and achieve nothing else. The Tory Brexit regime has gone down this route of course but seems to be pride itself on being a rogue state on the edge of Europe and one for whom international law means nothing.

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120509603#Comment_120509603

That doesn’t answer my question. You’ve re-used that trope incessantly. Have the moral courage to stand over your assertion. Identify the segments of society who you perceive to be the ‘anti-immigration guys’. Perhaps it’s time to acknowledge that you’ve constructed some malignant cohort in your own head, No?

Whilst it’s incredibly tedious, I’ll indulge your disingenuousness once again. There was a 500% YoY increase in asylum applications from CY 2021 to CY 2022. It would be relatively straightforward to restore some order, by reversing course on Roderick O’Gorman’s ‘own door’ accommodation strategy. Put the word out that Ireland has had a rethink; the standard mode of accommodation going forward will be dormitory-style. Enforce a decent % of deportation orders. Do not pursue a self-deport policy. Actually deport failed asylum seekers. Step up checks to further drive down the numbers arriving sans documentation.

The second migration channel currently being roundly abused is the English language visa factories, primarily by ‘students’ from Latin America. Shut down the bogus colleges, which are essentially a thinly veiled front for people trafficking and eliminate employment rights for ‘students’. Watch the numbers entering the country drop precipitously via this channel.

Neither approach contravenes ‘international law’ and will not make Ireland a pariah state, no matter how badly you desire that to be true.

I do not recall one person on this thread arguing that we should push back against intra-EU freedom of movement. In fact, virtually all of Ireland’s migration needs can be satiated by a bloc of 450 million fellow EU/EFTA citizens.

You’re now making stuff up to deflect yet again. Within the last few pages of this thread, you’ve claimed that protestors in local communities were ‘targeting refugees’, you’ve reiterated your ‘anti-immigration guys’ nonsense, and are now arguing against a point that nobody has actually made. Keep going. It’s entertaining witnessing the mental gymnastics on display to support an increasingly threadbare narrative.

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120509641#Comment_120509641

More half-truths / lies. Nobody is suggesting that Ireland withdraws from the UN convention on refugees. However, there are perfectly legal levers we can execute to make the system significantly more restrictive. See a few baseline examples in my previous post.

Please just stop propagating utter rubbish. You’re embarrassing yourself.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120509888#Comment_120509888

EU law is not the only thing at play here. There is also the 1951 Refugee Convention and the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR), both of which Ireland is a signatory to.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120509903#Comment_120509903

'Legal' and 'illegal' might be overstating things, but it would certainly be in breach of international law. Something nobody seems to be factoring is that if an Irish government went down this route, it is very likely that it would find itself being overruled by the Irish courts. Any 'genuine' refugee would be free to take a test case to the High Court or even the Supreme Court and would more than likely win their appeal (on the grounds that the Govt would be breaching international law - to which Ireland signed up - by attempting to deport a genuine refugee).

creeper1

A lot of these laws about asylum seeker rights were put in place post world war two when the world was a very different place. It was pre smuggling gangs and pre-tictoc.

Ireland failed to provide for an Afghan? I would imagine a genuine asylum seeker would be someone bombed out of their house in Belfast. They just make a short trip south. That would make sense. But this?

When they have this phrase "housing for all" they really must literally mean ALL. Like literally anybody from literally anywhere in the planet.

Luxembourgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120509603#Comment_120509603

Strazdas, out of interest what is your own positon on the matter?

Do you think anything needs to change wrt how we handle asulym seekers and/or immigration

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120509888#Comment_120509888

The court just found there is.

creeper1

Is that (ridiculous) judgement consequential? Is this guy owed some kind of payment for unnecessary stress? Do the government have to prioritise newcomers over locals as far as social housing goes? This is all so absolutely absurd!

tesla_newbie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120509603#Comment_120509603

those international laws aren’t binding, the likes of France doesn’t adhere to them like we do as our refusal rate for asylum is a tiny fraction of that of France

tesla_newbie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120509641#Comment_120509641

“ viewed by most as pretty outrageous “

most of the media and NGO class , certainly, the general population?, I’d have my doubts

housing

health

crime

cost of living

those are what jump out on a party manifesto, not whether the country has dared to act in its own interests rather than faithfully following UN pledges on asylum seekers

Galwayguy35

So this "17 year old" arrived with no documents and we are just supposed to take his word for it, no wonder he travelled through various safe countries before coming here because he knew full well they wouldn't put up with any of this nonsense.

No fear Gibney mentioned any of this during her soft interview with RTE on Friday.

Luxembourgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120510565#Comment_120510565

I actually think this ruling is great, as it should further open people's eyes to how ridiculous the system is

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120509903#Comment_120509903

they will likley pay for it, if the opinion polls on immigration are anything to go by.

Will they? Where are those voters going to go?

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120510320#Comment_120510320

But it would be a bit of a nonsensical claim to put in a manifesto. Saying "Once we are in government, we will put a cap on asylum seeker numbers", when this would clearly fall foul of various international laws and conventions and would be wide open to challenges in the Irish courts - it's the type of cynical PR stunt the Tory Brexit regime is engaging in cross channel (in truth, the Tories couldn't give the slightest hoot about refugee numbers...they are just trying to win votes).

BoxcarWilliam99

https://twitter.com/SteveMoyross/status/1648651228522459137?s=20

Refugee turns up at Intreo centre with a hammer demanding money.

Every day there are videos. One the other day of someone getting up on the roof of a car and taking a poop.

This is madness.

minimary

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120510879#Comment_120510879

The European pact on migration that was voted on by the European Parliament this week said that Member States should set quotas of how many people they could accept

"And it calls on countries to voluntarily set their own quotas on how many migrants they would be willing to take in." https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-lawmakers-endorse-pact-revise-migration-rules/

Luxembourgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120510660#Comment_120510660

Through ignorance and lack of interest in looking at policies SF or the SDs maybe, as ridiculous as that sounds

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120510898#Comment_120510898

Indeed, but in that case Ireland would still be following EU law and would not be going on a solo run.

I'm scratching my head though at how such a quota system would even work. Let's say the official quota for 2024 or 2025 has been reached and then a genuine asylum seeker from, say, Afghanistan or Sudan presents themselves at Dublin Airport. Does Ireland then deport that person back to Afghanistan or Sudan?? Presumably refugees would keep arriving in EU states no matter what system or what quotas were in place.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120510953#Comment_120510953

If someone is that ill-informed and disengaged to think they'd get more restrictive immigration policies from SF or SDs I doubt they'd bother voting at all...

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120511079#Comment_120511079

Trying to think of the last ra head I met who is pro mass immigration and I can't think of a single one.

I think SF has a disconnect issue with it's traditional voter base on immigration.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120511135#Comment_120511135

Doesn't matter, it's the party leadership that determines policy and they're showing no sign of changing course...

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/sinn-fein-is-suffering-in-the-polls-so-credit-to-mary-lou-mcdonald-for-her-partys-solid-support-of-migrants-42328852.html

Luxembourgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120511079#Comment_120511079

Their inability to get a handle on this is one of the many reasons I won't be voting FG again.

Wouldn't surprise me if we see a larger than usual independent vote. Not sure where I'll go myself, maybe Aontu, depending on the candidate.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120510532#Comment_120510532

You just said there is no legal obligation. The court found there is. Your argument has been proved wrong by the court judgement.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120511244#Comment_120511244

This guy is predicting SF will swallow up a lot of the independents along with the smaller left parties.

https://irishelectionprojections.com/

Much of the anger about immigration seems to be focused in working-class Dublin but the kind of independents who raise concerns about immigration have barely featured in those areas up to now...

Luxembourgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120511315#Comment_120511315

I think people underestimate the disdain many people have for SF. Despite social media hating the big two, the party most didn't want to see in power according to exit polls at the last election was SF.

Anyways off topic, so apologies to the mods.

I do think/agree that's immigration is unlikely to get people elected as single issue candidates, however I think the governments handling of the last few years will influence where votes go. How many I'm not sure

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120511135#Comment_120511135

Sinn Fein have always been a traditionally left wing or 'social justice' party. It would be a very surprising move for them to set themselves up as an anti-immigration party (or 'controlled immigration' or whatever people choose to call it)....that sounds far more like right wing stuff.

creeper1

I would like just like to say in relation to videos of late. A guy dumping off on a roof of a car (didn't see that one and probably won't look it up), a guy going after women with a hammer, an African woman doing some weird ritual dance in Mullingar (clearly mentally ill), Somalians and Algerians throwing chairs at each other and of course our friend threatening social services while watching an enchanting Nikki Minaj video.

This ladies and gentlemen are our saviours who will fund our pensions.

Oh heck!

tesla_newbie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120511135#Comment_120511135

SF are just FF in different clothes nowadays , they won’t spook the big corporations but they won’t upset the NGO sector ( or media who they need ) either , Soc Dems are the most enthusiastic about immigration of any party but their supporters are aware of this and support them wholeheartedly, no dishonesty there

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120511586#Comment_120511586

The UK had a recent PM (Truss) who had a policy of spooking the corporations and very nearly crashed the entire economy overnight : she is believed to have cost her country around £40bn in the process. These type of populist cranks should be allowed nowhere near any government.

Luxembourgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120511843#Comment_120511843

Our current government try to be populist, they just aren't very good at it.

The media and opposition party have been setting policy for years.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120511885#Comment_120511885

If that 'protest vote' goes overwhelmingly to other parties that also favour (in some cases even more) liberal immigration policies it won't be recognised as such by the government parties and thus won't serve any purpose...If SF and SD gain significantly at the expense of the government parties the lesson those parties will take is they need to move further to the left, maybe not specifically on immigration but that is likely to be part of the package...

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120511981#Comment_120511981

SF voters themselves that are most opposed to current immigration policies, according to the polls.

And SF know that.

They do but they don't care, as long as there is no prospect of them losing significant numbers of votes over the issue. And there's no sign of that as yet...

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120511981#Comment_120511981

If some SF voters are opposed to immigration or current immigration policies, then they don't even understand what a left wing or 'social justice' party is supposed to be. The whole point of left wing politics and / or social justice policies would be equality for all and ensuring that minorities are not marginalised or blamed for the ills of the country.

Those people who claim to be SF voters and yet are also anti-immigration sound more like closet right wingers i.e. they have attached themselves to the wrong party.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120511777#Comment_120511777

Wheres the evidence of this claim?

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120512225#Comment_120512225

The first reasonably sane party that offers some form of control on immigration will see a huge voter bounce.

But if none does in time for the next general election then nobody gains or loses (much) from the issue IMO, which suits the established parties just fine. I don't buy your prediction of a major shift to SF in protest at gtovernment immigration policies...

Guildenstern

I think we will follow the hardening EU stance and that's how the politico PR supported by media will present it. FG will try to get some poll benefit out of that stance. Or FF will.

Backstreet Moyes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120512366#Comment_120512366

Your demanding an answer despite never answering a question when asked for a debate?

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120512740#Comment_120512740

You are quite correct on the Lisbon Treaty opt out. But Ireland is also a signatory to the 1951 Refugee Convention and the European Convention on Human Rights - meaning any refugee could appeal deportation on those grounds, rather than citing EU law. Note how Braverman is running into major legal difficulties with her immigration plans in the UK, despite Britain having nothing to do with the EU any longer.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120512740#Comment_120512740

Where is the proof of your claim that "The legal obligation is only applicable because we havent invoked the Opt Out clause."

Tornaedo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120497769#Comment_120497769

As an aside, I like the way you refer to "Dubs" and "Culchies", simply calling Dubliners, Dubs, but calling the rest of the country, "Culchies" i.e. a synonym for country bumpkins, and even giving it a capital letter as if it's a proper name rather than an arbitrary description. You also put Dubs in quotes to suggest it's equally derogatory... it's not even remotely equal.